D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'm sure you mean, "should not, in your opinion". People overlook them all the time. We all get to make our own decisions.

....

But you can tell people what to do? lol

@Crimson Longinus said (I'm paraphrasing here), "Rowling's bigotry and active calls for discrimination against trans people cannot be overlooked as she is still profiting off of her works and using her platform and money to push her bigoted agenda".

So, yes, it is telling people what to do. But there are some things where it is okay to tell people what to do. "Don't drink and drive" is a good example, as is "don't abuse your children/partner", and "don't murder anyone". "Don't tell me what to do!" is a laughable (and worrying) response to all of those suggestions, as well as "don't support a bigot that is using the money you're giving her to try and discriminate against others".

If you actively choose to overlook her rampant bigotry and hatred towards innocent people that do not deserve the hate she is giving them . . . I think it's fine to make a moral judgement here. Sorry, not sorry. If you donate money to someone advocating for bigotry and can ignore their bigotry once the extent of their bigotry becomes clear . . . yeah, that's not a good thing. It's more than fair to say "no, you should not be doing that".

 

[Micah Sweet]

@Crimson Longinus said (I'm paraphrasing here), "Rowling's bigotry and active calls for discrimination against trans people cannot be overlooked as she is still profiting off of her works and using her platform and money to push her bigoted agenda".

So, yes, it is telling people what to do. But there are some things where it is okay to tell people what to do. "Don't drink and drive" is a good example, as is "don't abuse your children/partner", and "don't murder anyone". "Don't tell me what to do!" is a laughable (and worrying) response to all of those suggestions, as well as "don't support a bigot that is using the money you're giving her to try and discriminate against others".

If you actively choose to overlook her rampant bigotry and hatred towards innocent people that do not deserve the hate she is giving them . . . I think it's fine to make a moral judgement here. Sorry, not sorry. If you donate money to someone advocating for bigotry and can ignore their bigotry once the extent of their bigotry becomes clear . . . yeah, that's not a good thing. It's more than fair to say "no, you should not be doing that".

Fair enough. Should the entire HP Fandom roll up then? Since buying anything associated with HP puts money in her pocket, are you saying that everyone who has ever done so since this information about her became public knowledge is supporting bigotry? That's a very big finger to point.

 

[Scribe]

So, yes, it is telling people what to do. But there are some things where it is okay to tell people what to do. "Don't drink and drive" is a good example, as is "don't abuse your children/partner", and "don't murder anyone".

False Equivalency. Literally the primary (or one of them) points of the thread is 'do you overlook the artist, for the art'.

If you believe someone has commit a crime, I assume you have called the relevant authorities.

 

[Bill Zebub]

This is why this conversation gets bogged down in fighting. This isn't what is going on. There are some fundamental disagreements about what the situation even is. You are framing it in a way, that makes people who disagree with you into cartoonish villains. And you know nothing about any of these people or their personal experiences with life, how empathetic they are, how concerned they are about racism in the world. People are disagreeing over media tropes and what impact media is having, what the intent of certain media is.....there is a lot more complexity to this discussion than people are evil. At a certain point though, people also have to accept they are going to continue to disagree about things and move on as well.

No, I disagree.

We can have a conversation about the intent of media, and what the impact is, etc. etc. That's great. But, at the same time, no matter how little weight one gives to the possibility that our hobby is making things worse, and how unlikely it is that changes to the language in the official texts will achieve any good, there are people who are saying, "Naw, I'm not willing to change the lore behind orcs in my game of make-believe."

I will, however, say that I'm not intending to portray them as "villains". Normally flawed humans, subject to totally common biases and beliefs, yes. And also, FWIW, pretty much what I was like 30 years ago.

 

[Scribe]

"Naw, I'm not willing to change the lore behind orcs in my game of make-believe."

You know how many people have said 'Change the language in Volos, no problem.'?

Far, far, far more than you are attempting to flanderize.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Fair enough. Should the entire HP Fandom roll up then? Since buying anything associated with HP puts money in her pocket, are you saying that everyone who has ever done so since this information about her became public knowledge is supporting bigotry? That's a very big finger to point.

There's a difference between "keep reading the books" and "keep giving the author money", and many people will have different opinions on where to draw the line. Some people think that continuing to read the books perpetuates her presence in the mainstream and is still a form of supporting her, while others think that merely no longer financially supporting her is enough. It's not my place to draw the line in these distinctions. Currently, I think that as long as you believe that you're no longer supporting her, that is the moral choice. Giving her money is objectively supporting her, so I'm more inclined to draw the line there, but can also see the argument that reading her books and watching the movies is still supporting her.

Additionally, Rowling only became outspoken in her bigotry recently (2020, IIRC). It's immoral to support someone that you know is a bigot, but if you didn't know before, you didn't have that choice, so you did not make an immoral decision. It's like if you learn that the company that makes a certain brand of clothes uses child slavery in other countries to make the clothing. If you didn't know this beforehand, even though you supported them, you weren't immoral in doing so because you didn't have the choice. But if you continue to support them while knowing that they're still using those vile practices, that is an immoral choice. (This isn't an argument supporting willing ignorance, either. If you purposefully ignore the possibility that your actions are harmful, that is immoral, too.)

When you know better, you do better. We didn't know back then, so it wasn't immoral to support her. Now it is.

 

[Bill Zebub]

You know how many people have said 'Change the language in Volos, no problem.'?

Far, far, far more than you are attempting to flanderize.

Ok, then what exactly is WotC doing that you are opposed to?

 

[Scribe]

Ok, then what exactly is WotC doing that you are opposed to?

Removal of Alignments, Removal of fixed ASI, and generally making their descriptions more bland, wishy-washy and generic for reasons of dubious value.

 

[Smackpixi]

What are the systemic problems of inequity that need to be addressed in the game and its supplements ?"

Feels like the systemic problem is one of omission. Maybe? We get Western European based mishmash culture plus magic. We now get many skin tones in those settings, so diversity. Everything else is other, but feel free to home brew it if you like. The toe dips they have into those lands of others use the same writers of the regular WE+Magic stuff and have them draw from previous (often problematic) western interpretations of those cultures as inspiration. And, surprise, it goes..well, about like ToA. “Exotic“ and ”foreign”…other.

 

[bennet]

I'll take a stab at The Problem:

Some people are so un-moved by systemic racism that if you ask them to very slightly modify their make-believe game about elves and dragons in the off chance that it might make the world a slightly better place they kick and scream as if the sky is falling.

I mean, how $%##-ed up is that?

So go fix real systemic racism in the courts, in the police stops, in the job hiring, house sales etc.

But a bunch unemployed twitter accounts that are not real, pretending that some bullywug fairy that doesn't exist is a "problem" comparable to black lives matter, is ridiculous.

Black people have real issues to deal with. The D&D "racist issue" was created by a bunch of white Kevins and Karens from their basements.