The bard...

[alsih2o]

Though I'm not a fan of alignment restrictions in general.

i will second this

 

[MarauderX]

I gotta say that the bards should have all alignments available to them. Perhaps it's that perception of being on the road as a performer, living by your own wits that is really misleading. Being in several bands, I have to say that you meet all types. There is christian rock, isn't there?

I met a band whose members were so committed to 'doing the right thing' it was hard to talk to them about, well, anything and not feel like they weren't looking down at you. They didn't think people should be using file sharing programs, and that you should report exactly how much you make at each show in order to do your taxes correctly. Doesn't get more lawful than that. Our band is a bit on the other side of things....
www.theliberation.org

 

[Henry]

I'm in favor of the "Bards not lawful" idea.

In my mind, I cannot see professional diplomats, information gatherers, and performers being lawful. Lawful implies to me conformity and constancy, and to appeal to all groups of people requires a bit of flexibility that Lawful characters cannot afford to do on a constant basis, or risk changing what is lawful about them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I cannot see professional diplomats, information gatherers, and performers being lawful. Lawful implies to me conformity and constancy, and to appeal to all groups of people requires a bit of flexibility that Lawful characters cannot afford to do on a constant basis, or risk changing what is lawful about them.

I quite disagree. What is diplomacy, if not trying to 'keep the status quo' (which is lawful)? Can't gathering information be also implemented by police forces (which nearly scream lawful)? And isn't the performance of a piece of music verily dependant on rythm, patterns, and a steady, rhythmic, near-prediction of what comes next (which seems VERY lawful)?

Lawful is consistancy, and is often conformity, but you don't need to appeal to all groups of people to be a Bard, nor do I think you need to be flexible. What if there was one song in the mutliverse that could move and stir the soul of anything that had ever lived, a transcendant song...woudln't the process of assembling notes, trying different patterns, and seeing which creates harmony be a lawful process of trial-and-error, as opposed to a Chaotic 'I think I'll insert a chord *here*'?

I guess it just seems to me that most artistry is VERY lawful. Though it can often be chaotic, too, much of what is considered 'classic' relies on formulas and controls and patterns so that the human mind can predict it. A painting is a work of art because it depicts reality in lines and strokes. A song is a work of art because it stirs emotion in lines and spaces. A play is a work of art because it follows established principles of drama and pathos and catharsis.

I'm not saying that it can't be chaotic, but I AM saying that it is very lawful, too...which would imply that Bards could be lawful...

 

[aurin777]

Robin Hood was CG, not LG had to point it out.
~~Brandon

 

[Henry]

I quite disagree. What is diplomacy, if not trying to 'keep the status quo' (which is lawful)?

The heart of diplomacy is negotiation; by nature, negotiation is coming to a middle ground between two opposing sides. In the end, both sides change, just not all the way that they had desired. In most cases where there is a need for diplomacy, the status quo is what caused the need in the first place.

Can't gathering information be also implemented by police forces (which nearly scream lawful)?

A person can have a devotion to the law of the land without being Lawful - hence neutrality. If a land's law emphasized personal freedoms, a chaotic person may well be in favor of it. How it relates to being a gatherer of information is that often a gatherer of information must either have relations with people antithetical to law, or must "go deep" and appear to be soemthing they are not. A lawful individual would have a harder time with "ethical flexibility" than a neutral or chaotic individual would.

Lawful is consistancy, and is often conformity, but you don't need to appeal to all groups of people to be a Bard, nor do I think you need to be flexible.

I have to disagree with this point because in order to be liked by audiences, one must appeal to them. The ability to appeal to one audience different from the next, is a certain amount of flexibility.

What if there was one song in the mutliverse that could move and stir the soul of anything that had ever lived, a transcendant song...woudln't the process of assembling notes, trying different patterns, and seeing which creates harmony be a lawful process of trial-and-error, as opposed to a Chaotic 'I think I'll insert a chord *here*'?

I guess it just seems to me that most artistry is VERY lawful. Though it can often be chaotic, too, much of what is considered 'classic' relies on formulas and controls and patterns so that the human mind can predict it. A painting is a work of art because it depicts reality in lines and strokes. A song is a work of art because it stirs emotion in lines and spaces. A play is a work of art because it follows established principles of drama and pathos and catharsis.
[/B]

Art to me doesn't fall into patterns of "lawful and chaotic" - because to me chaos as an alignment isn't defined by disorganization, hence the musician can be as organized or disorganized in musical arrangements. Most musicians IMO are likely NPC Experts, not necessarily bards. However, the heart of diplomacy and negotiation and being skilled at many trades while mastering none is to me more a characteristic of neutrality, and possibly chaos, but being much harder to follow while maintaining order and constancy in an ethical belief.

I certainly see what you're stating, and it's a consistent explanation, it's just that I see a greater need for moral and ethical flexibility in being a bard than you do. In fact, I would go so far as saying that I believe Bards should probably be ethically neutral only, instead of lawful OR chaotic. I would almost say True Neutral only, but that would be far too restrictive game-wise.

 

[Merlion]

Well the first problem with the whole thing is the inherhent silliness of the Law/Chaos axis of alignment. its so nebulous, and the two of them essentialy flow into each other at certain points.
Also, I feel almost any alignment resitrction...and especialy a law/chaos one(since DnD law and chaos are basicaly personality traits as far as PCs etc go) is simply absurd.
Historical bards probably would have been lawful...they were keepers of history and traidtion and I think possible some times authority figures/makers of big decsions etc. I can see the DnD bard as leaning towards chaos but its still silly. of course the Law/Chaos axis itself is the silliest part.

 

[Mercule]

there are Lawful performers. Thing is they aren't inspiring, nor can they cast spells.

Actually, it's because Bards are paragons of coolness. We all know that Lawful isn't cool, after all. All the cool heroes live by their own rules, not those society wants to impose on them.

Since Bards are the ones telling us the stories of cool heroes (thereby becoming judges of coolness), we must ask whether Bards are prohibited from being Lawful because they are cool, or if Law is uncool because Bards are Chaotic.

Man, there is something not right in my head today.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Actually, it's because Bards are paragons of coolness. We all know that Lawful isn't cool, after all. All the cool heroes live by their own rules, not those society wants to impose on them.

Since Bards are the ones telling us the stories of cool heroes (thereby becoming judges of coolness), we must ask whether Bards are prohibited from being Lawful because they are cool, or if Law is uncool because Bards are Chaotic.

So you're saying Bards are the Carson Daly's and Madonna's of the D&D world.

 

[The Sigil]

I quite disagree. What is diplomacy, if not trying to 'keep the status quo' (which is lawful)?

"What is diplomacy?" he asks. I'll tell you...

"Diplomacy - The art of saying 'Nice doggie' till you can find a rock."
- Wynn Catlin, attributed, by Bennett Cerf in The Laugh's on Me

"Diplomacy is to do and say
The nastiest thing in the nicest way."
- BISAAC GOLDBERG, in The Reflex

"A diplomat is a fellow that lets you do all the talking while he gets what he wants."
- Frank McKinney Hubbard

"A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that you actually look forward to the trip."
- Caskie Stinnett, Out of the Red


--The Sigil