The Berserker - need balance advice

[Shariell]

Personally, I've grant him a huge amount of extra hit points when in berserk rage, instead of such high damage reduction, ad I give him a +10 to strenght like the official frenzied berserk.

The extra hit points instead of the uber damage reduction seems to me more in-line with the berserk warrior concept.
Of course, at the end of the berserk rage, the extra HP go away, possibly leaving the berserk unconscious or even dead.
I will make him completely immune to all charme and compulsion effects during the berserk rage, and force him to attack even allies if there is no enemy around him.
Berserk rage, in my humble opinion, is not something you can control.

The reason I don't like your super-high DR, is because it really protect him from damage, istead to permit him to don't care about the damage for the duration of the rage.
This way, you don't obtain something around the concept of berserker warrior, but rather something like an epic dwarven defender.

Don't want to seem rude, but this guy "as-is" has an epic damage reduction, and near no need for a cleric at the end of a rage. Subtract 15 from any attack hitting it, maybe is a little bit over the power curve of the others combat classes.

Don't want to criticize your work, and don't want to be offensive. Feel free to ignore my points if you completely disagree, but I hope they can help you someway

Bye!
Shariell

 

[Nyaricus]

hey, i am sorry, but i see some major loop-holes in your thougths on this, so i am going to go through them . . .

Personally, I've grant him a huge amount of extra hit points when in berserk rage, instead of such high damage reduction, ad I give him a +10 to strenght like the official frenzied berserk.

umm, the official Frenzied Berserker only gives a +6 at 1st level, and then +10 at 8th. if i didnt want an even partially balanced class, id go for that . as for extra hit points:+2 per character level isnt enough for you? at level 20, thats +40 HP, eqaul to at least another three levels in Berserker. thats pretty good already.

The extra hit points instead of the uber damage reduction seems to me more in-line with the berserk warrior concept.

thats the exact opposite of the normal barb > more HP, less DR. whoopity-do. mine gets both, but gets rid of some other (inappropriate) abilities. seems like you didnt even read my previous arguments about balanceing this class against the normal barb, so here it is again:

Barbarian (at level 20)..................Berserker (at level 20)
Mighty Rage 6/day...........................Greater Rage 5/day
Illiteracy....................................... Illiteracy (i will edit this into the main entry)
fast movement................................-
uncanny dodge................................uncanny dodge
trap sense + 6.................................-
Improved Uncanny Dodge..................Improved Uncanny Dodge
DR 5/-...........................................DR 10/-
-.................................................. DR 15/- (raging only)
Indomidable Will...............................-
Tireless Rage...................................Tireless Rage
-.................................................. . skill Mastery (intimidate)
-.................................................. Intimidating Rage

Barbarian 4+Int mod for skills (same except for Listen, 9 skills total)
Berserker 2+int mod for skills (same except for Lore (Religion), dropping Listen and Spot, adding back Handle Animal and Ride, 9 skills total)

so, each give up 3 things each, mine rages once less per day, but in each of his five rages, he gets 1.5 times the DR (which isnt that big of a deal at level 20) he moves slower (less combat manuverability) he doesnt have trap sense (which, by level 20, is a well developed skill, so a good compensation for better DR [combined with other drabacks]) and he gets a couple of feats revolving around his reputation of being a fearful warrior, and has less skills. i dunno, other than the armour issue, and the levels of certain (higher level) abilities, i think this is pretty balanced

Of course, at the end of the berserk rage, the extra HP go away, possibly leaving the berserk unconscious or even dead.

yeah . .i think i have heard of a class like that *looks like he is racking his brain for answer* oh . . . . its called a barbarian, published by some little backwater company called Wizards . . .

I will make him completely immune to all charm and compulsion effects during the berserk rage . . .

*munchkin radar lights up*

. . .and force him to attack even allies if there is no enemy around him.
Berserk rage, in my humble opinion, is not something you can control.

okay, you have a very valid point here (starit out of the sagas), and i ommited that in designing this class. Why? playability. you cant have a base class that automatically attacks allies even. so, another balance issue > perhaps the Berserker shouldnt be able to quit his rage, and must stay in it, even if it is detrimental to his health. opinions?

The reason I don't like your super-high DR, is because it really protect him from damage, istead to permit him to don't care about the damage for the duration of the rage. This way, you don't obtain something around the concept of berserker warrior, but rather something like an epic dwarven defender.

dont quite get what you are trying to say here . . . and btw, the dwarven defender is a far cry from this berserker class. they get (at level 10) +4 dodge to ac, uncanny dodge (alwasy keeps dodge bonuses to ac), has the dodge feat as a pre-req (another +1 dodge), can have 5 defensive stances a day (+4 to ac while using it) and, on top of all that, in ten levels gets a better DR than a NORMAL LEVEL 20 BARBARIAN!!! sorry, but i think my Berserker class is more balanced than WotC Dwarven Defender.

Don't want to seem rude, but this guy "as-is" has an epic damage reduction, and near no need for a cleric at the end of a rage. Subtract 15 from any attack hitting it, maybe is a little bit over the power curve of the others combat classes.

well, when look at when he gets his total DR 10/- or Rage DR 15/- (at level 20), he nearly is an epic character. so i dont see much of a game balance issue, although i would welcome comments that suggest alternative DR aquisition rates.

 

[danzig138]

The only comment I have on this is that I'd drop the uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge. The barbarian has a fairly low DR, and the dodging abilities. I'm cool with that, I can see some agile defense and all, but with the class you're trying to present, I see more of a suck it up and grin kind of fighter who doesn't bother with the defense so much. Flanked, don't care. Rogue with uber sneak attack, don't care. Hit me, I can take it and send you screaming to hell at the same time, etc. I might give him some additional hp while raging. But then, what I see in my head might not be what you see in yours.

 

[Nyaricus]

. . . more of a suck it up and grin kind of fighter who doesn't bother with the defense so much. Flanked, don't care. Rogue with uber sneak attack, don't care . . .

By George, I think you got it!!!!! That hits the nail on the head so much better. Thank you, one of the best justifications for the improved DR yet, while still maintaining balance!! Should have thought of it myself, but hey, i cant take all the glory . Again, Bravo

 

[Shariell]

hey, i am sorry, but i see some major loop-holes in your thougths on this, so i am going to go through them . . .



umm, the official Frenzied Berserker only gives a +6 at 1st level, and then +10 at 8th. if i didnt want an even partially balanced class, id go for that . as for extra hit points:+2 per character level isnt enough for you? at level 20, thats +40 HP, eqaul to at least another three levels in Berserker. thats pretty good already.



thats the exact opposite of the normal barb > more HP, less DR. whoopity-do. mine gets both, but gets rid of some other (inappropriate) abilities. seems like you didnt even read my previous arguments about balanceing this class against the normal barb, so here it is again:

Barbarian (at level 20)..................Berserker (at level 20)
Mighty Rage 6/day...........................Greater Rage 5/day
Illiteracy....................................... Illiteracy (i will edit this into the main entry)
fast movement................................-
uncanny dodge................................uncanny dodge
trap sense + 6.................................-
Improved Uncanny Dodge..................Improved Uncanny Dodge
DR 5/-...........................................DR 10/-
-.................................................. DR 15/- (raging only)
Indomidable Will...............................-
Tireless Rage...................................Tireless Rage
-.................................................. . skill Mastery (intimidate)
-.................................................. Intimidating Rage

Barbarian 4+Int mod for skills (same except for Listen, 9 skills total)
Berserker 2+int mod for skills (same except for Lore (Religion), dropping Listen and Spot, adding back Handle Animal and Ride, 9 skills total)

so, each give up 3 things each, mine rages once less per day, but in each of his five rages, he gets 1.5 times the DR (which isnt that big of a deal at level 20) he moves slower (less combat manuverability) he doesnt have trap sense (which, by level 20, is a well developed skill, so a good compensation for better DR [combined with other drabacks]) and he gets a couple of feats revolving around his reputation of being a fearful warrior, and has less skills. i dunno, other than the armour issue, and the levels of certain (higher level) abilities, i think this is pretty balanced



yeah . .i think i have heard of a class like that *looks like he is racking his brain for answer* oh . . . . its called a barbarian, published by some little backwater company called Wizards . . .



*munchkin radar lights up*



okay, you have a very valid point here (starit out of the sagas), and i ommited that in designing this class. Why? playability. you cant have a base class that automatically attacks allies even. so, another balance issue > perhaps the Berserker shouldnt be able to quit his rage, and must stay in it, even if it is detrimental to his health. opinions?



dont quite get what you are trying to say here . . . and btw, the dwarven defender is a far cry from this berserker class. they get (at level 10) +4 dodge to ac, uncanny dodge (alwasy keeps dodge bonuses to ac), has the dodge feat as a pre-req (another +1 dodge), can have 5 defensive stances a day (+4 to ac while using it) and, on top of all that, in ten levels gets a better DR than a NORMAL LEVEL 20 BARBARIAN!!! sorry, but i think my Berserker class is more balanced than WotC Dwarven Defender.



well, when look at when he gets his total DR 10/- or Rage DR 15/- (at level 20), he nearly is an epic character. so i dont see much of a game balance issue, although i would welcome comments that suggest alternative DR aquisition rates.

Ok ok, feel free to be sarcastic. Like I said, I don't want to denigrate nothing, you have asked for opinions, I have give mine.
To me DR 15/- is very problematic at non epic levels.
Play what you want, it's your campaign. Next time don't ask, simply no?

oh...and about your *munchkin radar*... try to adjuste him to detect a class with a DR triple than any other in the game...and search for others OFFICIALS classes that grant immunity to charme/compulsions spell and effects all day long (holy liberator ecc...).
I don't think grant a BERSERK such abilities ONLY in the berserk rage rounds sound munchkin...and surely fits well the concept of an indomite warrior.

BTW...like I said, play what you want, but be more polite and use a more friendly language when others members reply to YOUR requests.
If you want that guy to be part of your game, simply put him in and play him.
No need to be sarcastic or harsh with who don't think like you.

ByE
Shariell

 

[Nyaricus]

Shariell, i would like to apologize for my unnesessarily curt comments. You are completely right > i am asking you all, as equals, to respond back to my requests for feedback. Sorry if i have offended any of you, and i will try to be more polite from now on. A simple "thanks but no thanks" was all that was needed; but i instead attacked you and not your merits. Sorry.

*************

Anyways, i will be posting up my Berserker PrC in the next while, but first: some balance issuses. i still would appreciated feedback on the following issues

1) possible alternative DR aquisition rates. (mine is 1 DR every two levels, and 1.5 times DR in a rage. Thoughts on this?)

2) when should the Berserker get Tireless Rage (barbarian gets it at level 17) and Indomidable Will (barbarian gets it at level 14)? I was thinking level 18 for T-Rage, and 15 for I-Will. thoughts on this?

3) Berserkers in Nordic Sagas, while in a rage, attacked everything in sight > rocks, trees, enemies, and even allies. Perhaps, for playability purposes, a Berserker could have a Will save to resist attacking allies. the DC could be 10 + number of rounds already spent in rage. This save would only apply if there are no other visible enemies left. thoughts on this?

 

[Nyaricus]

my Bearsark and Ulfhednar PrC's have been moved to this new thread. Sorry for the trouble.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=2751178#post2751178

 

[Nyaricus]

i have a new idea for my Berserker base class. Perhaps, for DR, he should start gaining at level 4 (and every 4 levels after) 1 point of DR. At level 20, he'd have 5/-, and during a rage he doubles his DR (so he'd have DR 10/- in a rage) This, along with the fact that the Berserkers rages are reduced, evens out the increase in DR, but doesn't make him any better (unless someone thinks of a good reason why ) that the standard Barbarian.

Thoughts on this? (please).

 

[DamionW]

Nyaricus, just weighing in here. My only concern is the lack of skills, as others have commented. You've hacked out uncanny dodge, fast movement and medium armor to instead give intimidation and better DR. I'd leave the skill points at +4 and call it even, but that's just my gut call.

 

[Balgus]

My gut reaction to this is also "DAMN- that's a lot of DR!"

I would actually drop half of it, and shift half of it to Natural Armor or fast healing (and call it Thick skinned). That way, you get a variety of abilities and it doesn't seem to overload his BADASSness.

I say limit the skills, not the skill points. He still needs skill for survival, heal, spot, listen and the like. Remember that he is not just RAGE and bash- although that is what most people use him for. He is also a creature of the outdoors and should have skills befitting a character of such background.

As for your Bear Berserker. Which type of Bear are you talking about? In Complete Warrior, there is "Bear Warrior" that can take a bear form while in rage (i think) and as you progress in lvl, you first start at Black, then Brown and Dire (Which I think gives +16 to STR) and I think all your magic items meld onto you fo you don't have to deal with your sweater that your dear aunt Sally gave you not fitting.