The Black Company (aka Rawr, the Lady)

[WizarDru]

3) I'm not familar with the Weave system from WoT, it might solve the problem, but if traditional D&D magic is used most of the spells would have to be chucked. The scope and feel of the Epic spell system seems closer to what the Taken could do/did, as well as the limited usage the spells got. Perhaps they might be limted to just the really big (epic) and lots of little spells (illusion and what not).

4) Making magic items seems to be a large part of what wizards do. One Eye's Lance (perhaps the limit isn't your level, but how much XP you have to spend and can spend it over time without limits). The carpets. Fireball casters. Tower of Charm. Various communications devices. So you might want to look into having a large part of a wizards power/value reside in the items he crafts.

Good points, all. Part of the problem, of course, is that Glen Cook doesn't tend to analyze the process too much, so it isn't consistent for a game system, per se. Making magic items is certainly a major part of what the mages do (such as the fireball sticks, mass manufactured, no less).

The issue with the Taken is that more often than not, they're trying to manifest spells that would really be Supernatural Abilities in 3E. You could also argue that the Limper's attackers were using specialized feats to prevent him from completing the spell. Most of the Taken, IMHO, are high-level mages who have a custom template, and then unique prestige classes.

 

[Rackhir]

The issue with the Taken is that more often than not, they're trying to manifest spells that would really be Supernatural Abilities in 3E. You could also argue that the Limper's attackers were using specialized feats to prevent him from completing the spell. Most of the Taken, IMHO, are high-level mages who have a custom template, and then unique prestige classes.

I'm not so sure about the supernatural abilites. Sure they have some, but on the handful of occasions when you got to see the Taken exhibiting powers like at the Stair of Tear ( When they made the rocks glow red hot and then Stormbringer brought in the rains and steam cooked the rebel army. Seems more like epic spell class stuff to me. Or when they first headed north and encountered huge blackened circles of dead rebels that the Limper had left. Also some of the stuff you saw in the assault on the Black Castle in the second book (though again most of that seemed to be items of some sort).

Supernatural abilities stuff would be more things like Soulcatcher's eating the souls of the two soldiers after she and Shifter got that one Rebel leader (I think it was Harden). Granted though that this sort of thing was far more often exhibited in the books.

I don't think any specialized feats would be necessary to disrupt spell casting. I can't recall off hand any case in which any of the Taken manifested any significant powers when in HTH. The battle at the tower of Charm in the first book, specifically mentioned that several of the Taken were too hard pressed to be able to use their powers. Limper certainly didn't use any in the ambush in the second book when Croaker and friends chopped him up.

The defining characteristic of the Taken as a whole seems to be in fact, their incredible resilancy and resistance to damage. Which kind of turns the D&D mage stereotype on it's head. They all pretty much also seem to be extremely deadly in hand to hand combat.

The last observation that I would probably want to make was that Mages seem to be able to largely neutralize each other's magics simply by their presence. It's describe in more dramatic terms than that in the books, but that seems to pretty much be the outcome when ever you have two mages of any significant stature on either side. It also seems to be one of the reasons why the Black Company was so lethal, since they had two (minor) wizards while their opponents typically had none.

 

[drothgery]

The last observation that I would probably want to make was that Mages seem to be able to largely neutralize each other's magics simply by their presence. It's describe in more dramatic terms than that in the books, but that seems to pretty much be the outcome when ever you have two mages of any significant stature on either side. It also seems to be one of the reasons why the Black Company was so lethal, since they had two (minor) wizards while their opponents typically had none.

Err... they had three minor wizards for most of the first series. Did you forget about Silent?

In the second series, they had two most of the time, and often had two extremely minor wizard tagalongs (Doj and Sara), and one character with highly variable abilities (Lady). In the last book, they had one major wizard (Tobo) and two minor wizards (Arkana and Shukrat).

 

[Rackhir]

Err... they had three minor wizards for most of the first series. Did you forget about Silent?

Ah, yes I did, my bad. Technically, we should probably include Tom Tom (though he died in about the second paragraph of the first book) and possibly Raven since he did have some sorcerous skills.

 

[WizarDru]

Ah, yes I did, my bad. Technically, we should probably include Tom Tom (though he died in about the second paragraph of the first book) and possibly Raven since he did have some sorcerous skills.

Really? Man, my memory is really faulty. For some reason, I thought TomTom was around much longer than that.

 

[Old One]

Rackhir's on Target...

The Taken, IMO, should certainly have some manner of Epic or specialized template on them. Various Taken were "specialized" in different types of magic and/or abilities. The Lady, Shifter and others showed some talent at healing/necromantic magic and most of them were devastating in melee combat. Their vitality was incredible...how many times was the Limper carved up, burned, smashed, etc and still kept coming back? Soulcatcher got decapitated and chased her head halfway across the world. Simply treating them as wizards or even multiclass fighter/wizards doesn't do them justice!

Many of the Circle seemed to be more along the lines of traditional D&D sorcerers (Monte Cook variant w/ some fighter or ranger levels thrown in). They could be killed by fairly normal means and had no where near the vitality of the taken.

I also agree that a big reason for the Black Company's success was keeping their wizards under the radar. Numerous times in the books, the narrative describes how careful they were to keep their "pet" wizards a secret. Most the magics then, were fairly subtle. One-eye, Goblin and Silent (Tom-Tom wasn't around long enough to impact the story) strike me as mid-level (6-8) illusionists with a couple of other levels thrown in (probably a level or two of rogue for silent, a level or two of ranger/fighter for Goblin and One-eye).

I would love to see a d20 Setting released, but I agree with an earlier poster...get thee permission first!

~ Old One

 

[Doc_Klueless]

I believe that Silent has at least a couple of levels of Rogue. (Edit: Ack! You already said that up above). He does dispatch some "bad guys" with his dagger more than once.

If I remember, Cook compares the three wizards (Goblin, One-eye, and Silent) as such:

One-Eye is the most powerful.
Goblin the most inventive.
Silent the most consistent.

Though I don't see how that trivia can help any.

Keep in mind also that not all of their magic is illusion. Silent does manage some stink spells, that spell that kept the Bald Headed Hornets attacking the Blues and not the Company people. He also has enough potential that the Taken start teaching him their spells in the Second Book against the Black Castle.

(As you can probably tell, Silent was my favorite.)

As far as wizards go, don't forget to model Bomanz and the Dominator.

 

[WizarDru]

As far as wizards go, don't forget to model Bomanz and the Dominator.

Dominator, Shmoninator. He doesn't count, he's a stinking demi-god, for pity's sake.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Dominator, Shmoninator. He doesn't count, he's a stinking demi-god, for pity's sake.

Okee Dokee. Sounds good to me. But... Doesn't Mr. Cook describe all of the Taken as "near demi-god" which is why it is so difficult to make an accurate picture of the Taken using D&D.

Well, that and most of the action taken by the... uh... Taken is really off screen. When they are really nasty, Mr. Cook basically says, "and then the Taken were really nasty."

 

[drothgery]

As far as wizards go, don't forget to model Bomanz and the Dominator.

FWIW, Bomanz is in the 'just barely a heavyweight' category; he's probably on a level with Feather or Journey, but he'd need luck, surprise, or a lot of prep time to handle Whisper.