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The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

Hi Henry mate! :)

Henry said:
A correction to my earlier statement:

After looking at the stats for Graz'zt (got it right this time around), and the stats for Big D. and Big O. I can conclude that in First Edition AD&D, Big G. is comparable in power to D. and O., but not necessarily superior to D. or O.

I won't say it. ;)

Henry said:
G., for one thing, has weaker Damage resistance, his Magic resistance is weaker, and his armor class is comparable if he isn't using his magic shield, but he is stronger in his spell-like abilities than D. or O. He also carries a bigger entourage. A host of other minor factors come into play, here (for instance, he could cast the equivalent of a wish, but only for others and never himself), but suffice it to say, he should be close to equivalent CR and power - following the 1E example, perhaps he should work out to a CR between Big D. and Big O.?

Remember his four attacks! :p

Henry said:
The real pudding will be when I get the book.

Now your getting confused with Juiblex. :rolleyes: :D

Henry said:
Only then will we be able to offer a definitive analysis of Graz'zt versus the other princes. However, he will always be my favorite demonic pimp daddy, no matter how he is portrayed. :)

He ain't a Prince - hes the King. Demon King of Cool. All he needs is a white sequined jumpsuit and he'll be singing Viva Las Abyss all night.
 

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Hi Tuerny! :)

Tuerny said:
Not to be rude, but why should we trust you over WotC?

You shouldn't! Especially not when I am posting at 3:30 am :D

What you should trust however is the facts! Which fortunately speak for themselves.

- A number of Monster Manual challenge ratings are obviously incorrect. Certainly made all the more noticeable the higher you ascend. Likewise they don't really have any system to accurately determine challenge ratings, so what you are getting are best guesses.

- Doubling (or just generally increasing) the Hit Dice does not affect challenge ratings as WotC suggest. Again all the more noticeable the higher you go.

- The effect of levels on Challenge Rating (where CR 'x+4' = 4 'x') starts to degrade. Notably so after 20th-level.

All of these problems are easily fixed though. :)
 

On Graz'zt's CR:

Pfft and feh! Upper Krust misses the whole point of Graz'zt - he didn't get where he he is today from his raw power. He's successful because he's smart, cunning, charismatic and subtle. In 2nd edition, Demogorgon and Orcus were both lesser gods, while Graz'zt was only a quasi-deity. And it didn't matter! He was still one of the most powerful of the Abyssal rulers.

A prince of the Abyss should never have to engage in direct combat with anybody. They have vast legions and magical protections, and they can urge the land and local reality itself to fight for them. Graz'zt's armies are at least as vast as Demogorgon's ever were, while Orcus is weakened by his war with Kiaransalee. Graz'zt's loyal minion, Lord Verin, has wormed his way into the confidence of many other lords, while others serve Graz'zt out of fear of his influence or because of his many sinister pacts. He's a consummate dealmaker, not concerned with the raw elemental energy of evil as Demogorgon is, or with just killing everybody like Orcus wants to do.

Claiming that Graz'zt needs to physically defeat Demogorgon in a boxing ring does a huge disservice to the character of this most subtle of demons.
 

All i have to say is that whenever Upper Krust begins questioning Wotcs business strategy its time to give up on the discussion as beyond reational. :)
 

Trine said:
Time to add my two cents (or more).

First of all, I don't really care how they statted out the archfiends and such. I'll look them over and use the stats if I like them, but I won't lose any sleep over it if I don't.

Amen. I started this thread to share the vile wealth and people have gotten hung up on one chapter out of eight.

What I'm more interested in is the entire book. How useful do the feats seem? Is there anything especially cool about them? I read the initial review, but I'm definitely interested in seeing other people's opinions about the whole book. I've (personally) gotten bored with all of the people griping about how the archfiends were statted.

As I've mentioned before, there are several feats that allow one to metamagic their spell-like abilities a certain number of times per day. While fairly useful and deadly for demons and devils, PCs with spell-like abilities could get milage out of these too.

The Deformity feats are a nasty collection, with the prereq of the Willing Deformity feat. Deformity feats include making your hands into claws, putting out your own eye or cutting a hole for a third to see invisibility for a certain amount of time per day, scarring your face into a hideous visage, or starving or gorging yourself for stat change.

There are a couple feats that mark you as belonging to dark powers. Evil Brand lets all know your soul belongs to darkness, and other evil creatures respect or are in awe of it. Thrall to Demon and Disciple of Darkness are for those that have a Demon Lord or Archdevil as a patron (they gain some luck bonuses to their rolls a certain number of times per day).

So, for a couple of questions about the spells too. What kind of spells were in the book? Straight-out damage your opponent spells? Hunt-down your opponent spells? Make your opponent cry like a sissy girl because he's so scared spells? Make your opponent freak out and want to beat you down even more because you went after their loved one spells?

The spells run the gamut. There are direct damage spells, not so direct damage spells, summoning spells, utility spells (one that summons a bag of torture instruments, for example), it has some of everything.

Also, what kinds of penalties and restrictions (as were mentioned in the initial review) are associated with the spells? Temporary ability damage to yourself when casting, etc.

Yes, several spells, the Corrupt spells, have temporary ability damage costs. Corrupt spells are also not inherantly arcane or divine, so anyone can cast them and they become a spell of that type when cast. Also some spells require the caster to be diseased, drugged, or a demon, devil, fiend, or undead to cast it. Others require the caster to be standing in a particular place, or require a soul as a component.

What else? Oh yeah. Other opinions on the equipment found in the book. Are the trapped armors being really mean to your players (effectively taking away possible gear for their use/selling at a later point), etc? Do the traps have to be found through magical means or can a Rogue use their Search skill to detect them? Details please. :)

The trapped armor and equipment can be mean. Some of it destroys the item in question, some doesn't. And they're all essentially traps, so if a rogue is looking, they can be disabled.

Other trapped items include the spring needle in sword hilt. If you pick up the sword without switching a special latch, you get a poison needle in the hand. One is an axe that has detaching heads if a switch isn't flipped. And then the aforementioned fire-trapped armor.
 


Very cool. Thanks Ray! I think you may have just sold a book. :) Well, I'll definitely be looking for it at my local gaming stores. Again, thanks for the info. It sounds like a fun book to add some weird twists to your NPC's.
 

Xarlen said:
So the axe-heads just fall off?

I hope that's not all the trapped items.

It's a CR 1 trap, what do you expect? *shrug* It just makes the weapon unusable. It could be a very mean trick though. There are a few more, like a fire trap on a potion vile, and a glyph of warding on a backpack, and a poison gas spray in a coin purse. It also gives you some ideas on how to make other traps for equipment. The half-dozen or so it stats out are mostly for examples.
 

Upper_Krust said:

Yes those are extrapolated from my ECL/CR system - I guarantee it gives more accurate results than the official rules.

The official rules have a number of blatant mistakes (even Monte Cook went on record saying he thought the Solar was more akin to CR25) of which the Solar is the most obvious.

Likewise their advancement rules prove to be wildly innaccurate and incongruous.

Trust me...I know what I'm doing! ;)

Hi Upper_Krust. What you are talking about is not CR then. It's something else that you invented. Until you get the Book of Vile Darkness and run the archfiends through your grinder you really can't compare now, since you are talking about two entirely different things, right? It's quite possible the arch-fiends are also under-CR'd just like the dragons intentionally were.

Lemme know what you think once you've seen the actual stats. I'd be interested to hear. Until then all we have to go on is that the Solar is 19-23 and the demon lords are 20-32. That's all.
 


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