The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[The Serge]

I suppose this is just an impasse we are at then. I think that people will fear him because he destroys his opponents. I don't think they care whether he does it through guile, trickery, or physical force. If I know that he is deadly and can destroy me easily, I don't really care about what tool he uses to do that. It doesn't matter if I think he will personally come and destroy me, or I think he will trick Demogorgon into personally coming and destroying me. Either way I fear him for what he can do to me. I fear him and thus I obey for fear of crossing him.

It's not about physical power. It's just about power. I understand that you don't agree though, and I don't think there is much more room for argument on this particular point, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

I haven't proven you wrong any more than you've proven me wrong. I just disagree with you. You've presented a clear, concise argument and I respect it... I just don't agree. But, HEY, this is what the boards are for! To present our informed ideas and have them challenged by other informed ideas. Makes us smarter and better informed. I've learned a lot from this fun conversation!

 

[herald]

CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: physical power.

And I say, CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: mental power.


Why do I say this?

Simple. The 666 layers of the abyss isn't a flat featureless void. and for that matter. Not every powerful figure in the Abyss is known. So far all we know about there terrible figures, we don't know to much about their current domains. And just because someone is weekr than you doesn't meen that you can go to where he is and extract him. (Isn't that the reason that Saddam is still were he is?).

We also don't know all of Grazzt's allies. We know that his son is Iuz from the Greyhawk game. That NPC is a Demi-god. Perhaps there are other Gods (of Evil) that want him around. Maybe Old D and O are waiting for Grazzat to pop his head out of a certain hole so they can lay the smack down on him.

But there is one other thing that we are overlooking. Demons, (and Devils) have one thing in great commodity. The have time. Plenty of time. Revenge is so much greater if you can put it off for just a while.

Then there is another issue. When you have stated enemies, you have the ability to rally troops to your side. Your made stronger by the simple fact that as long as you can whip your troops into a frenzy againt your opponent, they will do what you ask. I'm sure that these fellows can certainly charm the pants off a lot of thier kind.

 

[kenjib]

I haven't proven you wrong any more than you've proven me wrong.

I agree, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise in my post. Very well argued Serge!

 

[The Serge]

I think we both agree that Graz'zt can probably put the beat-down on any of the non-named demons, right? He can probably lay a righteous smackdown on many of the other demon lords. He may not be able to beat on Orcus or Demogorgon physically, but by that point it doesnt matter nearly as much, because he effectively has Orcus as an unwitting ally against Demogorgon and vice versa. I made a post on this earlier that seems to have been mostly ignored.

Graz'zt doesn't have to be able to beat Orcus or Demogorgon to maintain his position. He just has to be able to hurt them badly enough that coming after him is a bad idea. This could be true for any demon - a couple of mariliths might be able to take out a balor, but: which one's going to take the first shot? And can she trust the other one not to betray her, during the fight or afterwards? Of course not.

Demogorgon, not being stupid, is not going to get into an all-out war with Graz'zt that will leave him vulnerable to Orcus - because Orcus will take advantage of such a situation (being no dolt himself). Essentially, the Demogorgon-Orcus-Graz'zt triangle is a delicately balanced three-way Mexican standoff, because none of them are going to make a decisive move until they are darn good and sure that they can be the one that will be left standing when the smoke clears.

J

I don't disagree with this. Any of it. However, the establishment and maintainence of this status quo requires that no one Demon Prince, or any lacky suddenly thinks it can quickly take a rival out. That's the only caveat I'd add to your statement.

 

[coyote6]

Hi all!

I went away for half an hour; returned to see half a dozen threads wanting a peice of me; spent 40 minutes replying to this post by coyote6 and just before I submitted it my computer crashed.

I hate it when that happens. Usually, I just let it go, 'cause like the man said, hey, silly discussion.

Its plausible that at some point in the past the Abyss was unified under one leader - however such sovereignty will be relatively short, given it is the nature of demons to conspire against one another.

Two responses:

1) If demons are so chaotic and evil that personal Smackdown Ability is the most important attribute of a ranking demon, then the One True Demonic Monarch was perforce powerful enough to smack down every other menace to get his job. So how did a bunch of weaker guys ever manage to take him down? He would just kill everyone anywhere near powerful enough to be a threat (when combined with enough others of similar power). Since demons have that chaotic, evil, utterly untrustable nature (that makes personal Smackdown Ability so necessary), a large conspiracy would be impossible, meaning that the One True Demonic Monarch only needs to kill (and keep killing) a relative few to keep himself firmly in place. So why isn't he still The King?

(Of course, without all those balors, celestials or devils will roll in, and eliminate all demons forever, but hey. Them's the breaks.)

2) OTOH, if demons can intrigue and conspire with one another to take down the One True Demonic Monarch, then why can't a demon intrigue & manipulate to keep himself as one of the Big Boys? In other words, why can't Graz'zt, prince of deception, pull enough strings to give himself enough political power to rival Orcus & Demogorgon & Ronald McDonald?

One final thought: so, Graz'zt used to be just as Personally Badass as Orcus & Demogorgon, and now he's not.

So, what changed? How did Graz'zt lose power?

Perhaps he never really had that power, and only fooled everyone (esp. one Gygax) into thinking he did.

Or perhaps he reached too far, and lost power.

Maybe he sought to commit the ultimate betrayal, and cut a deal with Asmodeus (or one of those fabled 66 HD solars!) to betray the whole of the Abyss; instead, he lost his shirt.

Perhaps Orcus' return from whatever-it-was that happened to him in 2e precipitated a loss of personal might for Graz'zt. So maybe now the demon of deception is desperately trying to pull the strings and layer the lies to keep himself on top. Andor he's looking to regain his lost strength.

Or maybe he hasn't lost power at all, and is only pretending to, to lure his enemies into foolishness (of course, his lies fooled a fellow named Cook, along with the requisite developers, editors, and such).

Maybe Graz'zt has found a way to achieve truly divine status, and make various posters happy, but it requires he first lose power before he can make himself God of All Deceptions.

[edit]: In other words, make an adventure or 666 out of the discrepancy!

 

[Celebrim]

drnuncheon: I'd thought of that exact same arguement earlier, and indeed it is I think the only strong arguement against my position (which is why I didn't bring it up). So, feel free to advance it, because I'm interested in seeing just how far it can be advanced.

But, I suspect that it has a critical weakness. The would be manipulator must suppose that if his mark is to be manipulated that his actions must be somewhat predictable. That is to say, the would be manipulator must be intelligent and sageous enough to be able to predict what the foe will guess when faced with the condrudum, 'I can't trust my foe, but my foe must know that I can't trust him, but...'. Fair enough you say, the Demon Lords possess inhuman intelligence and are capable of manipulating others based on successfully divining both what the other has posited (that is in the simpliest case, whether they are telling the truth hoping you will believe it a lie, or telling the lie hoping you believe it to be the truth) AND predicting how the mark will respond when you face them with the same condrumdum.

The problem here lies only several levels. For one, it ought to be clear at the least that it is a good bit harder to be decietful when no trust at all is present. For another, it ought to be clear that there is a certain ammount of luck involved. In condrudum contests like the Game of Wits in Princes Bride, in reality, most peoples position is not based on a deducable principal but in fact on a random decision. Therefore, no matter how intelligent you may be, your odds of correctly guessing are no better than those of someone who is completely stupid (50/50). Moreover, given that the players are in fact Chaotic, they are more likely than ever to be no more predictable than dice, and thus not manipulatable in the way you describe.

And there is an even more subtle problem. I like to consider myself a person of rather high intelligence. Persumably other people on this board have similar justifiable belief in their own mental prowess. Didn't it seem to you that Vincini wasn't nearly as intelligent as you yourself are? For instance, Vincini was able to lay all the evidence out before him, and yet could not draw the simple conclusion that the game was clearly rigged and that you shouldn't play a game that is rigged. Think about it. With the evidence before you, there was no other possible conclusion than you are being tricked. Vincini was manipulated by Wesley into believing that the game was fair even though Vincini had no reason to believe that Wesley would risk his life in a fair game. How stupid can you get?

And indeed, and here is the point, wouldn't a demon think precisely the same thing? How stupid can you get? Trusting Graz'zt or Orcus or Demogorgon into tricking you into believing that the game is fair. You know that the game isn't fair, and in fact you don't believe that there is such a thing as fairness! There are only games rigged in favor of one side or the other, and you should only play the games rigged by you.

Some people are arguing that failure of trust is Chaotic Stupid, but in fact quite the opposite is the case. Chaotic Stupid is Vincini the criminal trusting another known criminal to set up a fair game.

And moreover, there seems to be some resentment here that I'm saying Chaotic Evil cannot organize powerful institutions (and in fact I'm saying that they cannot organize institutions at all). People ARE in fact arguing against me that CE beings would be much better off if they just got along, and in a certain sence you are right. The Nine Hells are much better organized, and the rulers there of able to command much greater power than any ruler of the Abyss regardless of the relative personal power of either demons or devils. So what? No doubt every demon is highly envious of Asmodeus. Look at that fat cat they say. He's got it easy. He's tricked all those other fools into doing his bidding. What I wouldn't give to have a bunch of stupid foolish devils sacrificing themselves for my pleasure.

But that doesn't mean that the Abyss would suddenly organize according to the model of the Nine Hells just because all the inhabitants of the Abyss are smart enough to understand that they would be more powerful and properous if they did. Because, all the members of the Abyss are also intensely aware that there is only one 'admirable' (by their standards) being in the Nine Hells - the guy on top. In the Abyss, maybe the group isn't achieving like it could, but so what? You don't give a flip about the group. What you care about is that you aren't serving someone elses interests.

I mean please, it is not stupid not to serve Graz'zt. Have you ever tried serving Graz'zt? Serving Graz'zt is what is stupid, and I'm sure that the Succubi makes the same argument to herself, but that I'd never believe what she was telling me about serving Graz'zt one way or the other.

 

[barsoomcore]

Please correct me if this is not the crux of your argument.

Sure, let's assume that. At least until you trash it and I have to scramble for another.

I note, however, that the crux of YOUR argument appears to have shifted from the notion of mutual self-interest to the idea that Graz'zt is so smart he can predict demon's behaviour with enough accuracy that he can have some confidence that they have done X and not Y.

That's pretty good, I admit. Let's assume Graz'zt is smart (it doesn't have to be Graz'zt, but there's probably at least one demon lord who's reasonably bright, so let's call that one Graz'zt). He's smart enough that he can predict demon behaviour with better than 50% accuracy (less than that and he's better off just guessing, right?). So he sends demons off with various instructions, just to see what happens, because he can draw his own conclusions from whatever does happen, right? He doesn't need to trust anyone, he just needs to watch the outcomes in order to read between the lines and get the information he needs.

Huh. I see that.

Here's the problem, though: whenever anyone opens their mouth in the Abyss, everyone listening is going to be wondering who's agenda is being served. Now you're saying that Graz'zt is so smart (and, presumably, so arrogant) that he has enough faith in his understanding of the situation that he can figure out who's agenda is currently at the counter. Which is great, if he happens to be correct, and will get him killed if he's not. So what you end up with is a place where only the smartest, most paranoid, most powerful being will survive.

Because he's so smart, he can see through everyone else's plans. Because he's so paranoid, he realises that ANY sentient creature has the ability to become a threat to him. Because he's so powerful, he can wipe them out. Why allow any to exist when by simply wiping them out eliminates ALL risk? He can live forever just by killing every single other demon. Given the timeline that the Abyss has been running on, isn't it inevitable that this will happen? Even the slightest power imbalance will, over time, become crucial.

It's not like a demon is going to get lonely. And if we surmise that hey, he needs other demons to push around, well, then he's not quite as smart as we thought and so some smarter demon is going to come along and push him off his pedestal and not make that mistake.

Logic demands that IF your goal is to survive in the Abyss, that you will be forced to eliminate all life within it. Because in the Abyss, all life is a threat and will never provide any companionship besides. It's either kill 'em all or (what the actual smart person would do) leave.

Okay, so you got me on the smart thing. A smart demon can bamboozle a dumb demon. But my original notion was that the idea of actual evil is silly. Which it still is. The point that one demon can fool another doesn't make it less silly.

Well, MAYBE it's LESS silly, but it's still pretty silly.

 

[herald]

Geez, debating the Talmud is easier than this.

 

[takyris]

Maybe it's just the nature of what we're discussing, but there's something deeply unnerving about multiple people saying nice things about my post. I keep glancing over my shoulder nervously...

Um, yeah, the treasure room and door thing was me being hugely absurdist -- but I'm sure that if a DM were short-sighted enough to give a first-level CE wizard a wand of fireballs, it would happen at some point. "Treasure? Bah! What is treasure to a God? BWAHAHAHA, lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt!"

To the 10th level CE wizard scrying the whole thing, it's a display of inbred idiocy. Experience has given that wizard a better view of plans and strategems, and even if he didn't need that treasure himself, he could have used it for something else. A tenth level chaotic evil wizard can maintain the appearance of lawfulness for longer, because he knows that the moment he flips out and starts fireballing the commoners in the market square, a bunch of square-jawed adventurers are going to come looking for him -- and eventually, one of them will be smart or strong enough to get through his defenses.

I'm not saying that the 10th level CE Wizard isn't as chaotic or as evil as the 1st level guy with the wand of fireballs (who is counterintuitively screaming "lightning bolt" over and over again instead of "fireball", proving that he's not worth the one round of melee combat it would take to kill him). He's just advanced to a more elitist understanding of true chaos and true evil. He can put on an amulet of nondetection and make nice at the local duke's ball. Heck, he'll even save the duke from an assassin rather than taking it as an opportunity to disintegrate the duke's body and polymorph himself into the duke to take his place. Why? Because he's not aiming for the local duchy. He's aiming higher -- and he's figured out an important factor of the multiverse:

True Chaos and True Evil are not one hundred minor sins.

True Chaos and True Evil are ninety-nine good deeds that move you into the position to take them by surprise with one deed that guarantees your power, your strength, and your indomitable rulership.

Delayed Gratification. The end justifies the means, even if those means are unpleasant and not fun and involve actually keeping promises and stuff.

With the Duke trusting him and appointing him as Ducal Advisor, the 10th level wizard is in position to use his new influence to sureptitiously guide bandits and enemy humanoids, getting chaos into the region, fanning the flames of war, and convincing the duke that the only way to save the Duchy is to unlock the ancient relic currently housed in the mausoleum under the "No, seriously, do NOT use!" sign.

And that relic, once in the wizard's hands, will win him a kingdom.

This might be the heart of the disagreement. My personal belief is that demons won't betray each other as quickly and easily -- that Chaotic Evil does not preclude long-term planning or the ability to act lawful, or even good, as the occasion demands. That, by extrapolation, Graz'zt can expect several centuries of good work from his Succubus before she turns on him. This is why:

The Abyss has been around for a long, long, long time. They've gotten really really good at backstabbing and cheating and lying. They've watched top players get done in, and they've watched how it happened, and they've learned that nine times out of ten, betrayal gets noticed and results in you being torn limb from limb and eaten. That Succubus isn't going to break allegiance the first chance she gets. She's going to keep stringing Graz'zt along while she works her wiles. She knows he doesn't trust her. She knows that he's prepared to kill her if he even suspects that she's being less than forthright. So she will serve well, and faithfully, biding her time, and she will be a GOOD servant, reporting truthfully, acting on her master's behalf, and so forth. She's going to wait for an opportunity that will REALLY pay off, make her a power in her own right, because experience has shown her that changing loyalties is useless -- everyone who changes loyalties too early gets killed as short-sighted and stupid.

And Graz'zt, for his part, won't be foolish enough to expect unswerving loyalty. Heck, he'll smile and wink at her side schemes, her little covens and cabals that gain her power, because he knows that it makes her feel special, and her power, for now, is his power. He wouldn't even tell her not to do that stuff -- because if she breaks that rule and gets away with it, she'll consider breaking more. He'll have few rules, and she'll know that it's death to break them.

I fully agree that eventually, a CE creature will make its move. But I see them as much more cautious and careful, based on what they've witnessed and what powers they've seen. Physically powerful, spell-like prodigies with six heads and multiple gaze attacks and eye rays will find themselves bumped into spheres of annhilation if they wantonly break rules and disregard alliances. Even Chaotic Evil societies will put down their mad dogs.

(In fact, they probably work off their stress on mortals, doing the easy lies and casual betrayals on the Primes because it's so much less complicated than the million alliances and thousand betrayals and murky allegiances of their home. So humanity could easily misunderstand demonic societies, thinking them simplistic, with all of them always lying and never doing anything that merits trust, because the demons don't think the humans are worth really thinking about...)

So anyway... that's pretty murky, but I'm at work, writing quickly, and it's the best I can do on short notice.

Summary: Chaotic Evil can still be long-sighted. And the Abyss is a mean enough place that nobody can get by for long without playing. And playing means at least the pretense of alliance, agreements, and such.

Or maybe just "The Abyss is a Harsh Mistress..."

-Tacky

EDIT: Lots of good points made while I was writing this. I'm mainly asking the question of whether Chaotic Evil and long-term thinking are mutually exclusive.

 

[Henry]

Herald, you've just made my "quote of the day."

This is because alignment discussions (which this has become a variant of) are often never resolved, because it often comes down to a matter of personal opinion. Whereas many discussions can be resolved by pointing facts, discussions of how imaginary characters would act in a given situation, according to laws and precepts that are totally set by the debator, never get resolved, and both sides repeat the same points endlessly.