The "Bubble"

I actually find the Bubble to be more of a feature than a bug. Thinking about it from my martial arts background, there is a certain distance after you've swept a guy that you want to get to - not so close that he just grabs your feet and not so far that he can get up and reset himself - just enough that you can smack him again if he takes his eyes off of you. The Bubble is a decent approximation of that.

D&D isn't reality, though (and admittedly I wasn't the best fighter) so let's go to a more relevant, cinematic comparison - professional wrestling. If wrestler A puts wrestler B on the mat with a big finishing move and then walks off gloating, what does he get? Usually a Spear or maybe a run-by folding chair. [Charge] If he stands there and looks straight down at him, that's a groin shot waiting to happen. If the script is such that wrestler B is supposed to get beat down again, wrestler A will back off just a little bit so B can stand up all woozy-like and then take an elbow or something. That's more-or-less what's going on here. See also pretty much any Rocky movie and some Jackie Chan flicks; "The Tuxedo" comes to mind here. Seems to me to be a pretty standard trope.
 
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I'd like to think about it from the perspective of the "bubble-maker". I think that shift in perspective might give us some insight into the "bubble".

Why would someone knock an enemy prone, then move one square away from them, rather than remaining adjacent, or moving further away? Note that the attacker has an ability to knock his opponent prone, and the "defender" is simply the target which is knocked prone (and not actually a Defender role).

Obviously, this provides little or no protection from a defender with a good ranged attack. A prone defender can simply attack from the prone position, or stand up and then make a ranged attack. There is very little reason to make use of "the bubble" when fighting a ranged opponent, unless the object is to delay them. In this case, however, it would be usually better for the attacker to simply remain adjacent to the defender so that any ranged or area attacks provoke an opportunity attack. Therefore, it is unlikely that the 'bubble' will be used much, or be very effective, vs. a defender with good ranged attacks.

There will be very little reason to use the 'bubble' against a defender with a reach weapon or attack. The defender can simply get up from prone, and then attack the attacker with reach. There is very little purpose for using the 'bubble' against such a defender, and in most cases, the attacker will be no better off one square away from such a defender than he would be immediately adjacent to them (where he could, at least, get opportunity attacks). It is unlikely that the "bubble" will be employed to devastating effect vs. defenders with good reach attcks.

Thus, the "bubble" appears to be a tactic which is most attractive to use against a defender whose best attacks are melee attacks without Reach. This might strike many posters as obvious.

However, it is also important to note that even against such defenders (those whose best attacks are against adjacent foes), the "bubble" is only employed vs. a very small subset. The "bubble" does not prevent the defender from attacking another target. The defender can easily stand and charge another opponent. The 'bubble' does not prevent the defender from retreating. The defender can easily stand and then use a Standard action to Move or Run. Unless the attacker has threatening reach, the defender is free to move away from the combat.

Thus, it would appear that the "bubble" is a tactic best applied to a fairly small subset of defenders. It is only particularly effective vs. defenders with no reach, who have no or ineffective ranged attacks, who also do not want to retreat or engage another target.

Now think about this new tactical option. Normally, you cannot attack someone, then ready an action to attack them again before they can attack you. However, what if you were able to use a special tactic to "trip up" your opponent, knocking them off balance, and ensuring that, if they tried to attack you, you would be able to strike them BEFORE they could close in on you. You arent trying to get away from your opponent, but simply ensure that, through careful footwork, you keep the initiative in the fight.

Guess what? That's the 'bubble'! Barring an Action Point, there's no way to reflect the (very common) real world tactic of hitting someone when they are down. You simply can't knock someone down, and then hit them while they are rolling around on the ground, or even while they are off balance. You knock them down, and they pop up on their turn. However, thanks to the "bubble", the game CAN reflect this tactic. If you WANT to knock someone down, and stay "on top" of them, then, within the rules, you move away 1 square. This reflects you keeping a wary eye on your downed opponent. They simply CAN'T attack you (barring all of the clever magical/feat/power tricks) before you get to go again and hit them.

Either they back off (or attack someone else), or you get to hit them AGAIN before they get to hit you.

The "bubble" may seem to create an artificial construct in the rules, a safety zone where you cannot magically be hit. However, if you look at it in another way, the "bubble" actually enables a real world tactic. If you do away with the bubble, then knocking your opponent prone is basically a special case, only used in very particular circumstances. If you use the "bubble", however, an attacker can effectively get his 'licks in' on his downed opponent. He knocks them down, circles closely (the 1 square move) and hits them again before they can go (and if he has an at-will prone attack, oh boy!).

Before doing away with the "bubble", think of it as a special tactic just for those prone attacks.
 


Keep in mind that I haven't (and won't) offer an opinion on whether or not a "lunge" or similar fix is a good or bad idea. What I will say is that I have, once, seen a well reasoned, convincing, real-world based argument in favor of keeping the bubble intact (or at least against a "lunge"; see below). Since WotC's boards are down, I can't find that argument to quote it, so I'll try to give you what I remember.

The poster had experience with fencing or a similar sword-based martial art, and pointed out that in a duel, there are three levels of (non-grappling) engagement. In close, it's easy to attack your opponent because you can launch attacks past his guard. From far away, you have options for rapidly closing and attacking your opponent. However, there's an in-between point where it's difficult to attack your opponent (without being hit by him) because you aren't close enough to just attack, and if you try to get close and attack you're too slow to get your attack off before you get whacked.

IIRC, that poster advocated an interpretation of the charge rules where it was permissible to charge to "the closest square which is both at least 2 squares away and from which you can attack the opponent". So, if you're 1 square away, you can (usually) still charge the opponent, but you almost certainly will provoke an opportunity attack if you do so.

Anyway, I'm sure I've forgotten important details in that argument, but the essence that has stayed with me is that some people with more real-world sword combat experience than I possess think there is merit in having a distance from which it is very awkward to launch an attack.

t~

Funy, I didn't initially read to the part with the suggested house rule, but something like that came to my mind, too. If the "medium" range engagement makes it difficult to avoid a counter attack, let a "lunge" provoke an opportunity attack.

Of course, I am fine with "the bubble"...
 

Keep in mind that I haven't (and won't) offer an opinion on whether or not a "lunge" or similar fix is a good or bad idea. What I will say is that I have, once, seen a well reasoned, convincing, real-world based argument in favor of keeping the bubble intact (or at least against a "lunge"; see below). Since WotC's boards are down, I can't find that argument to quote it, so I'll try to give you what I remember.

The poster had experience with fencing or a similar sword-based martial art, and pointed out that in a duel, there are three levels of (non-grappling) engagement. In close, it's easy to attack your opponent because you can launch attacks past his guard. From far away, you have options for rapidly closing and attacking your opponent. However, there's an in-between point where it's difficult to attack your opponent (without being hit by him) because you aren't close enough to just attack, and if you try to get close and attack you're too slow to get your attack off before you get whacked.

IIRC, that poster advocated an interpretation of the charge rules where it was permissible to charge to "the closest square which is both at least 2 squares away and from which you can attack the opponent". So, if you're 1 square away, you can (usually) still charge the opponent, but you almost certainly will provoke an opportunity attack if you do so.

Anyway, I'm sure I've forgotten important details in that argument, but the essence that has stayed with me is that some people with more real-world sword combat experience than I possess think there is merit in having a distance from which it is very awkward to launch an attack.
Well, this is probably the best explanation for the "bubble" that I've seen so far, and it is one that I will bear firmly in mind if the group I'm gaming with prefers to stick with the RAW instead of using the Lunge house-rule.

The "charge to the closest square that is at least two squares away" house rule is another solution that I could accept.

One point that I'm still not too sure about is whether the mechanics of one-on-one duels would continue to apply in a many-on-many melee, but since it's something that I've accepted as a given in my games so far, it would be hypocritical of me to make a big issue of it now. :)
 

Intent question

Thanks for all the replies. A lot of interesting ideas on both sides of the issue.
I am still looking for an answer as to the designer's intent. All of the suggestions are "after the fact" that accept the Bubble as part of the game and move on from there. I am wondering if the Bubble was intended. If yes, then my group sees no reason to house rule it. If it wasn't intended and happens to be something that fell through the cracks without realization then we will house rule it.
Game on.
 

Thanks for all the replies. A lot of interesting ideas on both sides of the issue.
I am still looking for an answer as to the designer's intent. All of the suggestions are "after the fact" that accept the Bubble as part of the game and move on from there. I am wondering if the Bubble was intended. If yes, then my group sees no reason to house rule it. If it wasn't intended and happens to be something that fell through the cracks without realization then we will house rule it.
Game on.
I think it's highly unlikely that anyone in this thread could prove it is intended or prove its unintended. I don't think we can help you with that.
 

I think it's highly unlikely that anyone in this thread could prove it is intended or prove its unintended. I don't think we can help you with that.

Heh I was going to ask all the secret WOTC employees of the inner circle to please stand up and take a bow... and all the mind readers to pile to the front of the message boards.(only humor intended)

I dont think I would even consider the opinions of those running the WOTC customer help lines that official. The released information we have regarding intent is sometimes very general ... rather than specific. Erata or lack of Erata might give a clue... etc.
 
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One point that I'm still not too sure about is whether the mechanics of one-on-one duels would continue to apply in a many-on-many melee

You might want to consider whether it's even an issue outside of one-on-one duels; once it's a many-on-many fight, you have many options- charging another opponent and letting an ally engage, having an ally grant you movement or force move the enemy, and so on- that the tactic can be countered fairly easily. It's only in one-on-one duels that someone (who must only have melee/close burst 1 attacks, not have any powers that let him move and attack or powers that would immobilize the opponent to disrupt the attack) might have a problem countering at-will knockdowns.
 

Thanks for all the replies. A lot of interesting ideas on both sides of the issue.
I am still looking for an answer as to the designer's intent. All of the suggestions are "after the fact" that accept the Bubble as part of the game and move on from there. I am wondering if the Bubble was intended. If yes, then my group sees no reason to house rule it. If it wasn't intended and happens to be something that fell through the cracks without realization then we will house rule it.
Game on.

I think we can safely assume the minimum charge rule is intended, at the least, to prevent someone from shifting back a square and then charging for +1 to hit whenever they would be using a melee attack anyway. Whether the way it interacts with a daze or knock prone power was also intended, though, is something only a designer could actually answer. There are a couple that post periodically on the WotC boards; it may be worth trying to get in touch with one of them once the boards are back up.
 

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