D&D 4E The Business of 4ed Part I: The Problem

I doubt it. In my area, gaming stores have been dropping like flies. They've also been arising... like flies? I don't know a good simile for how something arises. But the rate at which gaming stores have been closing matches the rate at which they've been opening in the three cities that I frequent. And the average number of gaming stores within a 30 minute drive of my apartment has been three in all three cities. The exact number has waxed and waned over time, but its remained up there.

In every case except one, I could easily point to the reason it went out of business, too. And it wasn't a declining market for RPGs. It was something the store was doing poorly that was being done well by its competitors.
 

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Stereofm said:
Maybe rather than new editions, the game needs broader-minded people and attitudes, so that it looks more like an open-minded hobby, and less as a retarded male-teenager club ? Because no matter what the rules are like, if we keep seeing that kind of things, I don't see many who would like to join.

Hopefully this will come about. A friend of mine, she and her family are really big into the high-end quality boardgames. Arkham Horror, Talisman, Last Night On Earth, Zombies, Twilight Imperium, Puerto Rico, etc. They have regular game nights at their place for neighbors and such; you'd not think that couples in their fifties and sixties, including one woman in her eighties, would sit down and love playing Betrayal at House on the Hill. These ain't quick and easy little Monopoly games, here.

Small booklets of clear and consise rules. Definable objectives. Clear-cut prerolled characters with histories and such.

Strong horror, science fiction and fantasy elements are not as big a bar to entry as might one time have been the case in the choice of someone's evening entertainment. Some of these adults have expressed some interest in learning RPGs. So.. there is a means and a way to have this happen.
 

I'll accept the correction from "ever" to "than in some time". That's fair. That said, how do we know that 3E didn't introduce a lot of new blood. I meet quite a number of gamers 16 and under at conventions nowadays. There were precious few of them around between 1990 and 2000. I don't think that conventions have replaced the FLGs. I think that's a function of today's society where it's easier to schedule for a couple big events than something frequent and regular. Conventions are a place to meet your friends from far away.
 

JamesM said:
I can't speak for the original poster's intent, but I suspect what he meant is that the term "grognard" gets thrown around unthinkingly a lot as a way to label people whose ideas about D&D one does not like or agree with. It's a term of derision and scorn, much like racial epithets. I doubt his intention was to equate them in some moral calculus, but the point remains: when discussion reaches the point where derogatory terms are being thrown about, you're reaching an impasse. A lot of old schoolers may have, as they say, appropriated the term grognard and made it their own, but most people who use it intend it to have a negative connotation -- a close-minded Old Believer who's not hip to these modern times.

Yes that was I meant. Thank you for expressing it better.
 

The problem here is that, by definition, you're on the way to becoming a "grognard" when "your personal vision of what makes D&D" is at odds with the current direction being taken by the creative team at Wizards.

We all have an opinion about the direction the game should go. If you agree with the direction the designers are taking the game, or can accept that change happens and you want to keep playing the new game, you're in a group I like to call "adopters." If you started playing an edition other than 3.5, and now play 3.5, then you were an adopter once.

The minute you decide that you'd rather continue to play "the same old game," rather than a new one, you are a defender of keeping the "status quo." There are keepers of the status quo out there for OD&D, 1e, 2e, 3e, and every version of Basic ever made. These are the people usually referred to as grognards. Except they're usually pretty easygoing about it.

Then there are the people who "don't want to play the same old game" but rather want it to "develop in a different direction." They say this to try to draw a distinction between themselves and the group above (the "status quo" folks). These folks, are, in fact, the true "grognards" that people are disparaging. They can't simply continue to play the same old game, and they don't want the new edition to go in a direction they personally dislike. So they rail against the new edition, stomp their feet and try to make themselves sound like the voice of the masses. They decide to speak out for "the rest of us" against the evil corporate overlords at WotC.

What I have to say to those people is this:

You aren't the majority.

You don't speak for all of us.

Some of us like the direction the game is taking.

Some of us chuckle at statements that the antagonism of the community towards its own is the true reason the hobby's not growing. No, the hobby's not growing because we have people who are so hidebound by tradition that they don't want a more approachable game. Sorry to break it to you folks, but there are multiple "barriers to entry" to someone who might be interested in taking up tabletop roleplaying.

First, you have to pick up a game and decide that it looks "cool." The rules need to be understandable and comprehensible without having someone else explain them. The flavor needs to be "extensible" enough that the teenager who picks this up for the first time isn't totally turned off by stuff he doesn't understand. You have 10 seconds to catch his attention in the bookstore or game shop. A recognizable brand with an evocative name (like, oh, Dungeons & Dragons) helps. Snazzy cover art helps.

Then, once he's picked it up, you've got to grab his attention with something. Flavor is good, but it better be pretty compelling flavor. Flavor that is, at best, liked by only the hardcore gamer crowd is probably going to leave him cold. Then, the mechanics have to "feel" right. And by right, I mean "like he could run the fantasy stories he's familiar with" right out of the book.

Does 3.5e meet that test? I think I know the answer.

The hobby's not growing because of elitist attitudes that it should be "hard" to learn to play. If 4e changes the rules to make it easier to learn, I say great.

The hobby's not growing because not enough people can pick up D&D books in the store and understand it enough to go to their friends and say "hey, this looks fun! Let's play!" If they get attracted by the minis game and become tabletop players, there's the chance they'll become tabletop Roleplayers. Again, more players = stronger hobby.

A game you have to be introduced to by an experience veteran is doomed to die. Unless those experienced gamer groups split up and start running other games that involve inexperienced players. And quite honestly, how often does THAT happen?

I'm not saying the game has to be dumbed down to the point of becoming American Idol, but there's nothing that says it can't be tweaked to have more mass appeal - like comparing Heroes to Smallville.
 

The digital initiative is WOTC's way to fight these trends, and its brilliant. Subscription based is the way of the future, its a model that works brilliantly. People may not pirate the books at all, if it means they cant use them on their online tabletop. As a member of several online irc groups/etc, I can assure the online community is crying for begging for what DDI is offering to provide.

Errata slipped straight into digital books, wholesale? One subscription for my DDI/Dragon/Dungeon? I'll take it all.

Why doesnt WoW get pirated? Subscription based.

Its freaking brilliant.
 

JohnSnow said:
The hobby's not growing because ...
Lots of people over many years have attempted to explain why the hobby is not growing and, in my opinion, they all miss the mark. The cold, hard truth of it is that D&D -- heck, roleplaying in general -- is an esoteric, fringe activity that takes more time and patience than most people are willing to invest in an entertainment. It's no different in this regard than wargaming or model railroad building or playing bridge. Roleplaying will never appeal to the mass market and, while I understand why a company like WotC especially would wish to do their darnedest to demolish this reality, I simply don't think it's possible.

Roleplaying will always be freakish and marginal and I don't think it's because the rules are too complex or old timers too elitist or whatever. Most people find roleplaying weird, far weirder than reading comic books or going to Star Trek conventions dressed as a Klingon. My own feeling is that gaming, both as a hobby and a business, would be healthier if people recognized this and acted accordingly.
 

Daztur said:
What the idea with 3.*ed was that WotC would publish a lot fewer books than had been published for 2ed (i.e. mostly stick to the 20% of the products that make 80% of the profits) and through the OGL let third party publishers churn out the 80% of the products that make 20% of the profits.

...

It didn’t work.

It worked incredibly well. If you compare the output of TSR from 1989 (2E launch) through 1996, to the same length of time (2000-2007), you'll find WotC published about 10% as many D&D TRPG products as TSR did, yet made roughly the same amount of revenue.

Ryan
 

2 points...

First...what is a grognard? A person who simply prefers something old over the newest lastes thing? A person who prefers the old way for wierd reasons? Or....something else?

Next thing. Nobody has mentioned the internet's role in the decline of pen and paper RPGs (i'm not jumping on the PnP players vs. MMO players slugfest; keep reading). Hobby/Game Stores are essential to the RPG industry. Computer RPGs and MMOs can survive without Target and Walmart, but D&D could not survive with periodic conventions alone. RPGs are social games.

People sit at a table (or wherever) together, become friends, and have to meet new people to keep gaming groups active. Without a place to meet like-minded people, there may be limited ways to attract groups of existing players, but new players will trickle in very slowly by word-of-mouth. Usually in the form of close friends or family members. In those cases (as we have all done before), how often will the phrase, "Don't worry about buying the book...use mine" be uttered? Groups and players will slowly erode away, because it is hard to find new players that have departed and hard to find new games when you have departed.

Why is it becoming harder to find players? There are fewer stores that not only sell the games, but also find it profitable to promote them. Game stores are essential to the future of games, as that is the best way to get the word out - not about introducing a new game - but about touting the fact that other people are playing it. Computer games have no such issue. There is an entire world at the other end of the ethernet cable waiting to play. RPGs require a bit more of a personal touch (I have little faith in the idea of playing D&D over an online digital table. technology is not yet advanced enough to make such a game experience casual enough that the proper attention could be applied to the role-playing aspect). RPGs require a bit of time, physical space, and manpower to convince new/potential players that the game is not going to be gone and unsupported as soon as the first suppliment is purchased.

A number of factors figure in to this lack of profitablity: this is where I tie the internet back into the picture. In no particular order, a couple of items have put the hurt on store owners.

First of all, we have discount internet sellers. Yes, I know the economics of mass quantities/lower prices, not needing a storefront on the internet, other reduced costs and all that. It is not the fault of the store owner for charging too much (they have to pay certain amounts from distributors and then have to make a fair profit - otherwise, why be in business?), and it is not the fault of internet conspirators. It is the fact of how economics roll. Only one thing could alter this: most (75%) of groups and players I game with still intentionally support the more expensive local stores. We find value in the extra dollars spent: a place to hang out, a place to meet new people for the hobby, and a store owner that will go "an extra mile" for us when we ask him to search for an old book...hold copies of Dragon until we can get back in town from a work trip...and other personal touches that you will be hard pressed to find online.

Second: file-sharing and hard-disk bookshelves of pirated books. Admit it, people. It happens more than anyone wants to say it. If I didn't own so many of the books, I might have done it for a hardcover here or there. I admit that I searched for module pdfs so that I could cannibalize the maps for my own game. Then I found the map-a-week on WotC's site. But you can certainly see it happening if you get on any of the networks. We can use all of the same arguments and precedents and excuses that have been used in the music industry. This is the same thing. Unfortunately, these games are not broadcast to everyone everywhere, saturating people's awareness with at least a fair idea of what is going on. The music industry is recovering and changing; music is not going away. However, there is nothing at all wrong with probing the internet for what you want and listening to a song by yourself.
 

JohnSnow said:
(snip)
You aren't the majority.

You don't speak for all of us.

Some of us like the direction the game is taking.
(snip)

I'm not saying the game has to be dumbed down to the point of becoming American Idol, but there's nothing that says it can't be tweaked to have more mass appeal - like comparing Heroes to Smallville.

Best post in the thread.
 

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