D&D General The Case for Evil Orcs (Minor Rings of Power Spoilers)

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I think I laid it out pretty clearly that they weren't free willed in the OP. If by "people" you mean flesh and blood mortal creatures, there's no reason not to. They are more like velociraptors in that sense, but more frightening because they think and speak and might just want to chop off your legs for a snack since you aren't using them anyway.

Tolkien's Orcs have language, and different personalities and are intelligent enough to make weapons/armor and other crafts. They're people. They have some kind of free will.

As to the "why not skeletons/robots/demons" question: I think, world building wise, they are scarier as "alive" but I can appreciate that some folks prefer not to draw some arbitrary line between "people" and "servitor species."

Then use magical wolves or some other type of unintelligent wild predator. Or something like Warforged. Or make the robots biological robots (like @Oofta's version, where they're clones programmed to follow certain orders). Or give them some other justification for being hostile than just "they're born evil". Maybe they're like Thri-Kreen or Lizardfolk and enjoy eating the flesh of one of the other races. Or need to fight for some reason, like 40k's Orks. Or it's just a specific culture/religion/nation in the species that makes them "evil".

There is no justification for having an always-evil race of mooks (that are people) be used as mooks other than tradition and nostalgia. There are better solutions. There are workarounds for using them other than making them people.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Elves do NOT have souls in the way Men do. That is explicitly the gift to Men. They get to go to heaven or whatever but Elves do not (though some are resurrected). Since orcs are corrupted elves, they do not either (though there's an interesting question of whether a killed orc could be resurrected as an elf).

I know Elves are different. They do, however go to the Halls of Mandos when they die to await being re-embodied and returned to the world. If Orcs are corrupted Elves, as most writings indicate, then they go to Mandos as well and could be returned to the world.

Elves, Men and Orcs all still exist in some form after death.

 

[Micah Sweet]

IIRC, the spirits of dead elves go to the Hall of Mandos or are reborn on Middle-earth. I’d assume Morgoth made some mechanism that enforced the later for orcs.

Morgoth doesn't actually have that power; it belongs to Mandos (or to Iluvatar).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Tolkien's Orcs have language, and different personalities and are intelligent enough to make weapons/armor and other crafts. They're people. They have some kind of free will.

Then use magical wolves or some other type of unintelligent wild predator. Or something like Warforged. Or make the robots biological robots (like @Oofta's version, where they're clones programmed to follow certain orders). Or give them some other justification for being hostile than just "they're born evil". Maybe they're like Thri-Kreen or Lizardfolk and enjoy eating the flesh of one of the other races. Or need to fight for some reason, like 40k's Orks. Or it's just a specific culture/religion/nation in the species that makes them "evil".

There is no justification for having an always-evil race of mooks (that are people) be used as mooks other than tradition and nostalgia. There are better solutions. There are workarounds for using them other than making them people.

I have to ask you the same question I asked @EzekielRaiden: would you insist that other gamers follow your views? Your thoughts above seem rather prescriptive of other people's opinions.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I have to ask you the same question I asked @EzekielRaiden: would you insist that other gamers follow your views? Your thoughts above seem rather prescriptive of other people's opinions.

Would I insist that another table stops using the pre-errata lore for the Hadozee or old versions of Vistani? No. I'd certainly speak up at the table that used that lore just to make them aware of the problems and try to get people online to understand my viewpoint, but I wouldn't "insist" that they change how they play their table because of me.

Same answer.

 

[Vaalingrade]

if I have evil orcs attack a town, and my party fights them does it matter if ALL orcs are evil or are just THESE orcs are evil?

That's what I don't get. Why do ALL of them absolutely need to be evil.

It's like in the 'is this evil' thread where there's an alien species that feels the need to eliminate all humans. Does it matter if they're evil, does it matter that every single one of them - children and elderly included, even the ones you will never meet-- is a justifiable kill if the ones you're facing here and now are a clear and present danger?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Sure. You're right. Let's not discuss that thing.

Yeah, but you can see the issue here, right?

Avoiding the problematic bouy by steering full speed into a problematic iceberg larger than the ship itself.

Let's not talk about reasons for killing people that might be an issue; let's just kill them for being born wrong.

When all the while we're just killing them for being in the way of killing guys who we have reasons to kill or having stuff we would rather like to own instead of them anyway.

 

[Professor Murder]

That's what I don't get. Why do ALL of them absolutely need to be evil.

It's like in the 'is this evil' thread where there's an alien species that feels the need to eliminate all humans. Does it matter if they're evil, does it matter that every single one of them - children and elderly included, even the ones you will never meet-- is a justifiable kill if the ones you're facing here and now are a clear and present danger?

It's also worth noting that this is not in fact a new issue. Grappling with or gleefully ignoring the moral implications of violence are as old as RPGs. Keep on the Borderlands has non-combatant women and children peppered among the various orc/goblins/ect found in the caves that the PC presumably have to clear out. What do you do about them?

 

[Demetrios1453]

"Inherently evil" races--races that have the capacity to make moral choices, but inherently always make evil ones--are a problem for both the racism reasons (isn't it just dandy that they're coded with stereotypical Asian, African, or Middle Eastern characteristics? Good gosh golly, so unfortunate that!) and for the simple fact that they crush any actual moral understanding that could be learned from the text.

So, what if you remove the coding? What about having orcs, having come from elves, look the same as elves - conventionally beautiful, ethereal, etc., other than often being built like linebackers? But still evil?

 

[Professor Murder]

So, what if you remove the coding? What about having orcs, having come from elves, look the same as elves - conventionally beautiful, ethereal, etc., other than often being built like linebackers? But still evil?

Part of the objection is simply that biological essentialism when it comes to behavior is in essence the basis of racism.