D&D 5E The Challenge Rating Goldilocks Thread- Too Hot, Too Cold, or Just Right?

[Nebulous]

Ran an encounter with an oni (ogre mage) this weekend. Even with a half dozen support ghouls and ghasts, he was stomped before the end of his second turn. This was a five member 5th level party. A previous encounter with a single bullette tested the party to the max, and a fight with a group of 6 orc archers on the other side of a pit of 3 gelatinous cubes was a good challenge.
The difference was all in the terrain of the combat. The oni did enter combat invisible, but he quickly got surrounded. The party did so much damage so quickly (170+ points in one round), that it didn't matter if it had regeneration, spell-like abilities, or what.
So it was anti-climactic for me, but the players had fun stomping the BBEG of the campaign arc.

I had the PCs ambush an oni once, and a player critted him in the first round and killed him. It didn't even get to enter initiative. I was so sad.

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

I use KFC to build encounters using CR. I cheat toward hard/deadly because I have an experienced crew who enjoy the combat game, but that's still within the CR usage guides. I find it useful to get a rough gauge on vase encounter difficulty, which I can then adjust to circumstances like terrain or non-hp-exhaustion win conditions.

However, it bears stating that I also get pretty close to the 6-8 encounter adventuring day recommendation, so that helps.

I use KFC a good bit (can't recall the last time I went to a KFC, but that's a different kind of chicken). I find it useful to get an idea of the ballpark I tend to budget for a Deadly encounter but split it up somewhat. The other big benefit it has is listing out monsters along with their sources, which helps cut down on search time. They also sometimes suggest some monsters that I've never heard of but end up working out nicely. I don't do CR math in any great detail, though. I just get it to Deadly and divvy things up a bit so that not every encounter hits all in one chunk. This includes exploration challenges that might do damage or burn resources or taking into account the fact that some foes won't fight to the death. I don't get 6-8 encounters per session, more like 3-4.

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

That doesn't mean the CR system doesn't work as well as any can, it just means that tactics, environment and luck can play a huge role.

CRs are no more than a rough guide. One has to take the strengths and weaknesses of the party and the players in mind. Obviously a group without a cleric or Oath of Devotion paladin fighting a bunch of undead will be in for a much harder time than one with a cleric and a paladin. Players who don't work as a strong team can easily add an extra point or two to most adversaries' CRs whereas players who do will almost do the reverse. I've played/DMed with groups of both types. What a group of four characters that hardcore support each other can do will strongly eclipse what a group of six that do not.

 

[Jay Verkuilen]

The lower the CR, the more accurate I find it to be. This is not surprising, as the levels rise the variance in options, experience of the players and other things makes the power of a party range wider.

Yes, absolutely. The math works much better overall across the entire game at the low levels. WotC made some choices that let the math get away from them at higher levels.

Each party and campaign is different in some way and will interact with the CR system slightly differently.

Unquestionably this is true and I'd add that the players themselves matter. If players don't make tactically sound choices, they won't be nearly as capable and this means CR is effectively higher.

The frustrating thing is when the CR system is not internally consistant with itself, as there are a few that are really not set right compared to other monsters in the same CR, though I can't think of examples off hand.

The banshee is a good example.

 

[Wiseblood]

Four 6th level players fought Strahd and his special friend from Strahd Must Die Again.

I might add there were no fireballs and the players did not have the “good items that could be found” no spoilers.

Strahd died his friend magicked up an escape. No casualties on the PC side.

Strahd is allegedly CR 15 and legendary. His vile compatriot CR?? (Yes that is double digits.)

PC’s Fighter, Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer no fireball and no Radiant Damage Spells. The Bard was charmed from the word go.
So three on three.

Team Bad Guys HP total 250+ And regen. Spells 5th and higher.

Good guys HP total about 100 with some healing no regen. Spells 3rd and lower.

So CR is in no way connected to the reality of the game.

Too many fiddly bits and RNG and skill gap make it fail routinely.

 

[cmad1977]

Four 6th level players fought Strahd and his special friend from Strahd Must Die Again.

I might add there were no fireballs and the players did not have the “good items that could be found” no spoilers.

Strahd died his friend magicked up an escape. No casualties on the PC side.

Strahd is allegedly CR 15 and legendary. His vile compatriot CR?? (Yes that is double digits.)

PC’s Fighter, Bard, Ranger, Sorcerer no fireball and no Radiant Damage Spells. The Bard was charmed from the word go.
So three on three.

Team Bad Guys HP total 250+ And regen. Spells 5th and higher.

Good guys HP total about 100 with some healing no regen. Spells 3rd and lower.

So CR is in no way connected to the reality of the game.

Too many fiddly bits and RNG and skill gap make it fail routinely.

Meanwhile I nearly wiped a group of 6 level 8 PCs and their revenant/paladin ally with Strahd by himself. AND they’re armed with both the symbol and the blade.

 

[Retreater]

I think there's an issue with monsters who punch below their CR (such as possibly the oni). And then CR needs to be revised that solo monsters are way easier than their CR suggests (which might be in Xanathars?)

 

[Swarmkeeper]

CR is especially meaningless if the DM is tactically unprepared. I’ve been there as DM and player.

 

[generic]

CR only really works if you know exactly how tactically-minded the designers were, which is impossible. I still use CR as a very rough estimate of challenge, but because I'm a more tactical DM in general, some of my CR1 baddies punch above their CR. Other times, I can't find a good strategy for a monster, and my CR 11, home-brewed super-Bodak Hierophant of Annihilation is creamed by the party of 6th-7th level players. In general, CR should only be used as a rough measure.

 

[FireLance]

I use CR (and the related encounter guidelines) as a starting point, and make the final adjustments based on my eyeballing of the PCs' and monsters' stats and abilities.

I personally believe that the reason most CRs break down (specifically, they seem too low) at high levels is because they are based on the unrealistic assumption (in most games, anyway) that the PCs have no magic items.

I'm sure no-one honestly believes that if a CR 10 opponent is a reasonable challenge for a 20th level fighter with no magic items, that same CR 10 opponent is a reasonable challenge for a 20th level fighter with a Legendary Belt of Giant Strength, a Very Rare Weapon +3, a Rare Shield +2, and a Rare Armor +1.

IMO, the lack of guidelines on how magic items affect what CR opponents would be a challenge to the PCs, or even an acknowledgement that PCs with magic items should be able to take on opponents with higher CRs, is one of the main failings of 5e.