D&D General The child stealing food to survive scenario, for alignment

[Cadence]

And I know plenty of people like this in real life (people who are arbitrarily violent, and fuelled by hatred) and they dont walk around randomly murdering kids, burning down taverns and similar.

Think of a violent street criminal, or an outlaw motorcycle gang member.

While CE certainly encompasses extreme cases like the Joker, or Darth Vader, or full on murderous psychopaths of the highest order, it also encompasses anyone who is fine with harming people (assault; even murder, slavery, torture etc) and who lives outside the law.

It's the latter (people who are just fine with harming others, and are also living outside the law, or with a disrespect for society, order and tradition) that compromise the majority of CE people, with 'Jokers' and 'Vaders' being the extreme outlier.

Isn't chaos more than just being outside the law and not respecting society, order and tradition, isn't it actively working against it and for it's destruction? And not only society at large's rules but the gang's and whatever code street criminals have as well?

How does NE not describe the gang or street criminals you mention? And doesn't Vader value the hierarchy? That also doesn't feel CE to me.

 

[Oofta]

What did you do to the kid exactly?

I presume you're playing a fully grown and heavily armed adult here.

If I saw an adult knocking a kid to the ground IRL, I'd look on aghast as well (like the other dudes at the table did).

Grabbing an urchin/ thief to stop them, or take them to the Law perhaps. Bashing them to the ground, hell no.

Asked the DM if I could throw my hammer in such a way as to not cause real damage but knock him down by hitting the back of his legs IIRC. I didn't have the speed to do a tackle.

But again, I'm just relaying how my character responded. He didn't use lethal force, he was an expert with the hammer, it was something outside the rules so I asked the DM if it would work.

If he had the option he would have just grappled the kid. If the DM had responded that there was a chance to kill the kid I wouldn't have done it.

I don't know why you have such an issue with this particular scenario: my PC was LG with strong LN tendencies. Theft is wrong, the kid was a criminal (even if it was a misdemeanor), I did not use lethal force. The kid got nothing more than a skinned knee and some minor bruising.

 

[Cadence]

I presume you're playing a fully grown and heavily I saw an adult knocking a kid to the ground IRL, I'd look on aghast as well (like the other dudes at the table did).

But someone grabbing a running kid, maybe dislocating their arm or having them fall to their knees on the ground, and them invariably screaming something like "help I'm being kidnapped" wouldn't leave you aghast?

And, is this modern you, or pseudo-medieval you? Or would there be no difference in how you would view things?

 

[Flamestrike]

Isn't chaos more than just being outside the law and not respecting society, order and tradition, isn't it actively working against it and for it's destruction?

Absolutely not.

Not every chaotic person is actively working to destroy order. A chaotic person is simply someone who is independent, has little or no respect for order or tradition and tends to be unpredictable.

Not every lawful person is actively working to destroy chaos either. They're simply people who respect honor, tradition and family, are dependable, resolute and follow a rather rigid code (often the legal code of the land, but not always).

And not only society at large's rules but the gang's and whatever code street criminals have as well?

Some 'codes' can be described as 'be chaotic'. The Sith code for example, in addition to the chaotic alignments themselves.

And doesn't Vader value the hierarchy?

What hierarchy? He exists outside the hierarchy, answering only to the Emperor who he is sworn (under the Sith code) to attempt to betray and murder, whom he actively attempts to recruit first Padme, then Luke to help him overthrow (plus in Legends Starkiller), before finally pegging him down a shaft himself.

He doesnt value the hierarchy. He only serves Palpatine out of anger and fear.

Vader literally exists outside the law. He never keeps his word, has no sense of honor, and no respect for tradition, destroying and betraying (in order) the Republic, Obi Wan, his own Wife, the Jedi, Lando Calrissian, the Empire, the Sith, the Emperor and plenty more.

 

[Cadence]

A chaotic person is simply someone who is independent, has little or no respect for order or tradition and tends to be unpredictable.

What would you say to a player who said those things about their character but argued it was Neutral because they wouldn't actively go against the law or tradition any more than they would go out of there way to follow it?

 

[Flamestrike]

Asked the DM if I could throw my hammer in such a way as to not cause real damage but knock him down by hitting the back of his legs IIRC. I didn't have the speed to do a tackle.

Throwing a warhammer at an unarmed child?

Seriously man. Imagine watching a shopkeep toss a sledgehammer at a fleeing 8 year old.

Imagine it.

I don't know why you have such an issue with this particular scenario: my PC was LG with strong LN tendencies.

I have the same issue with it as did the others at your table. It seems a little excessive tossing a warhammer at a fleeing child (even if you were not trying to hurt the kid) on account of petty theft.

 

[billd91]

What would you say to a player who said those things about their character but argued it was Neutral because they wouldn't actively go against the law or tradition any more than they would go out of there way to follow it?

They certainly could be. The Law-Chaos axis doesn’t often tell you what a character will and will not do. It’s more a question of why. A chaotic character can act in the same manner as a lawful character in the same instance, their lawful/chaotic bent will generally be more about their approach to the situation.

 

[Flamestrike]

What would you say to a player who said those things about their character but argued it was Neutral because they wouldn't actively go against the law or tradition any more than they would go out of there way to follow it?

A neutral person (with respect to Law and Chaos) is someone who sits between those two definitions I provided above, however they may have leanings towards one side or another.

It would depend.

 

[NotAYakk]

LG - Systems with "remove the hand" almost always have a "geld" system. Arrest the child, pay the geld yourself.
LN - There is no obligation to turn in the child. Return the goods. If the child could be of use, use this as leverage.
LE - There is no obligation to turn in the child. Get the child arrested. Use threat of extreme punishment to find use for child, paying geld if worth it. Alternatively, see if the shop keeper is soft hearted, and extort shop keeper with threat to punish child to get something from shop keeper.
NG - "Accidentally" pay the merchant for the stolen goods.
N - None of your business
NE - Determine if the child could be useful. If yes, use LN or LE strategy to extort child.
CG - Steal more food for child.
CN - Tip over part of the shop keeper's cart to see what happens.
CE - Kill child, take bread.

 

[Oofta]

Throwing a warhammer at an unarmed child?

Seriously man. Imagine watching a shopkeep toss a sledgehammer at a fleeing 8 year old.

Imagine it.



I have the same issue with it as did the others at your table. It seems a little excessive tossing a warhammer at a fleeing child (even if you were not trying to hurt the kid) on account of petty theft.

Meh. Theft is theft. It's a criminal act and wrong is wrong. My PC stopped a crime without doing lasting damage to the kid. Had a chance to find out how we could help the kid and if it was possible for them to turn their life around instead of falling into a life of crime.

Made sense to me. The psuedo-medieval world that is D&D is harsher than our 1st world 21st century.

Anyway, I'm done with this tangent. Have a good one!