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tomBitonti

Adventurer
Folks may be better off over all because of the cooperative arrangement, even withstanding unequal payouts. Measuring value gains only by looking at the payouts compared to an ideal distribution seems to be too small of an analysis.

Thx!

TomB
 

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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
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Certainly.

Just from looking at the effects of government programs that are supporting healthcare, food distribution, training, etc., you find they improve the overall wellbeing of the workforce. That improves efficiency & productivity, reduces days directly lost to sickness or the healthcare of others, minimizes disease vectors, increases healthy lifespans, reduces training costs, and so forth.

That's good for everyone.
 

Hussar

Legend
Oh, hey, as a pretty strong federalist I completely agree with the above. I think it's part and parcel to being in a society that the society as a whole looks out for all its members.
 

Dannyalcatraz

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Re: this comment by me:


Here's a nice article from The Atlantic pulling together a lot of those sources:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/what-this-cruel-war-was-over/396482/

As a quick flashback to the original topic, thank you to Colonel Ty Seidule, head of the history department at the US Military Academy at West Point for making a video that breaks it down nicely and explicitly:
http://www.vox.com/2015/8/12/9132561/civil-war-slavery-video
 


Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
10% of a budget is not chicken-feed. Many businesses run at or under 10% profit margin, for example. Lose 10% of your budget, and the thing can collapse.

Of course, a government is not a business. So, consider what happens if you lose that 10% - it means either having to cut 10% of everything, or cut a lot more of some things, and not others. When you start talking about essential services, this can be highly problematic.

Its our money. It just has a federal stamp on it. The federal government collected about 290 billion dollars in taxes and fees this year. Québec is about one fifth of the Canadian economy, so using gorilla math we can infer that about 58 billion dollars were collected in Québec. I'd rather have that than 9 billion dollars.

It has been an issue since Canada was founded. The money was in Ottawa, but the responsabilities in the provinces. The British North America Act of 1867 made sure education and health were provincial responsabilities, while Ottawa got the power to tax almost exclusively. So we've always been begging for our money to finance our programs.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
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It has been an issue since Canada was founded. The money was in Ottawa, but the responsabilities in the provinces. The British North America Act of 1867 made sure education and health were provincial responsabilities, while Ottawa got the power to tax almost exclusively. So we've always been begging for our money to finance our programs.

In the basics, it doesn't seem substantially different from here. While our states collect taxes, they still have to go looking to the Federal government for resources as well - education, infrastructure, and social safety nets being major examples. And some get more funding from the government than they put in.

That's okay. My welfare is still tied to theirs - if their kids are poorly educated, my life will be impacted, for example. So, yes, some of my money goes to educate kids a thousand miles away. This does not disturb me in principle. It is only specific cases (where funding is used ineffectively, or on stupid stuff, f'rex) I might object to.
 

Kramodlog

Naked and living in a barrel
I really don't think you get the play the racism card.
I'm pretty sure you can when you are the victim of it.

In the past forty years, we've had about thirty years of Prime Ministers from Quebec - Mulroney, Trudeau and Chretien.
It isn't because Obama was elected president of the US that the US doesn't have racism problems anymore. The situation improved when we took some power back. I won't deny that. But it isn't have if we are fully in control. This is why independence is important, as it is a means to get all the power that was taken from us back.

If you want any federal job, you must speak French. /quote]Officially, but not in practice. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/budget-cuts-hurting-bilingualism-languages-watchdog-says-1.1201720

Harper nominated non-bilingual judges to the supreme court. The supreme court! He nominated an unilingual Auditor-General. And that language ain't french. He nominated an unilingual minister of *drumroll* culture. I guess there is just one culture in Canada.

Canada has two languages on paper, that's it.

I've never seen any data reporting difficulties of French Canadians attending university or any other education for that matter.
Now, but before the Quiet Revolution is was very different. The Catholic Church didn't really value education and promoted a slave mentality. Ambition was evil and if you were born poor, you were ment to die poor. Born for a small loaf of bread was the expression. The government was under Church control, so it didn't manage education. It just gave money to the Church to manage it. Except for priests, our elite returned to France after the conquest of 1760, so we didn't have rich people who finance prive universities or education. It is more of a British tradition. Loyalists did finance universities. McGill come to mind, but those were english insitutitions. It wasn't in anglopohone interest to finance french schooling either. First we were a dumb inferior ethnicity.Second, we were easily exploitable cheap labor. This in why in 1960 only 3% had a university diplomas and most bureaucrates were anglophones.

Money was needed to change that. Lots of it.

Again, I've never seen any reports of French Canadians being targeted by police for special attention (well, other than during the FLQ crisis I suppose). Nor is being French Canadian any sort of an impediment to getting a job.
Violence as stop, but it isn't the only criteria for racism.

As for jobs, well, that has improved. Before the Quiet Revolution, not being bilingual ment you couldn't get some jobs. You couldn't talk in french at work and to customers. A The Bay clerk who was french couldn't talk to a french customer. Speak white, remember? This is why laws against that sort of discrimination needed to be implemented and still need to be there to prevent the return to systematic discrimination. Regulating signs comes from that time period. People need to know what is written on them, so they need to be in french.

That being said, only speaking french is still an impedement. There are still job environments where english is the only language used. You're not bilingual? Too bad, no job for you. The provincial Liberals have been blamed for shrugging at the situation.

It is also why we need institution that are in french. This way unilingual people can get good paying high qualification jobs, and unilingual people can get services in a language they understand. Take Québec's Financial Markets Authority. It is responsible for financial regulation in Québec and provides assistance to consumers of financial products and services. I think each province has one, but Harper wants to merge them into one, and most provinces are ok with it. We, as usual, oppose that for the reasons I've mentioned above. Plus it becomes a tool of passive assimilation. Learn english or be excluded from jobs and services.

Building institutions from the ground up cost money. This is why we wanted in the constitution a clause that let Québec refuse to join in national institution and programs with full financial compensation.

So, what racism? In what way are French Canadians being treated inferior to English Canadians? I'd say that the special treatment of Quebec is largely responsible for the negative reactions of the rest of Canada.
This response makes me think of some comments about black people in the US. A lot of people see black people as a class with special benefits and rights when it is the oppiste. Québécois do not face the same blight as black people in the US do, but we too face the perception that we get special benefits and rights when we do not.

You mention Manitoba and other provinces that receive considerable equalization payments - you do realise that people DO call them freeloaders right? That the Have provinces resent everyone for taking their tax dollars. Quebec isn't special here.
Oh we have a special place in haters' heart. Just tune in some talk radio show or read a Sun newspaper, and you'll hear Québec bashers.

In what way is Quebec being oppressed? Your culture is strongly protected, far more than Aboriginal rights are and they DO have far more legitimate claims to oppression and racism. What oppression?
It isn't a competition. There isn't a level of oppression that needs to be met before someone can object to it. Any oppression is bad. Some have it worse than others. Aboriginals have it pretty bad, that is for sure. Right now e face racism and continued passive assimilation tactics.
 
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Ryujin

Legend
Regarding the comment about being able to speak both official languages (English and French) in order to get a Federal job, I can somewhat support that statement. Straight out of college (1986, so not exactly yesterday) I took part in a competition for placement in the Ministry of Transportation, in which 5,000 applicants were accepted from across the country. Of the 5,000 applicants, the judged positions of the top 1,000 were published. Having not used French in a decade or more, at the time, I didn't feel that I could claim any level of fluency. I did, however have the top marks in my class and had earned the only bursary available to us. I came in at #199. Someone from my class with significantly lower marks than myself, but who claimed fluency in both French and English, finished #16.

It is very unlikely for someone Toronto, Edmonton, or Vancouver to have French as a second language. It is far more likely for someone from Montreal, Quebec City, or somewhere in northern New Brunswick to speak both official languages.
 

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