The "correct" way to deal with marks

[DracoSuave]

Its important to note that in many cases they know about the penalty, but may not know that the fighter can take an attack for any actions, since those powers are separate and not known.

I'd say that depends entirely on the monster's experience, knowledge of fighting styles, and intuition about the same. At level 1 it is reasonable to assume Barky the Kobold hasn't experience with fighters, but at level 21, you're dealing with monsters that have eaten all sorts of adventurers. Seeing as, in terms of epic characters these monsters might have faced over the millennea, they -probably- have faced a Fighter or two, they might have the ability to recognize the fighting style.

If I can't determine that by the background of the monster/roleplay/story etc, then I -do- allow monsters knowledge rolls to see what they do know about player capacities. Hey, they give those monsters skills for a reason.

But beyond that, that Fighter's Combat Challenge only works as a surprise -once- against an intellegent monster. After that, he -knows- what is up. And trying to keep a secret technique from Vecna? Don't even make me laugh.

Blanket statements like 'Monsters don't know nuffin' aren't really applying the Monster's capabilities, in the same sense that 'Monsters know everything' aren't either.

 

[Goumindong]

I'd say that depends entirely on the monster's experience, knowledge of fighting styles, and intuition about the same.

Not really. Players are not NPC's. Its just as reasonable to say "my character is level 21 and so should definitely know about all the powers these monsters have. I've been adventuring for 21 levels after all!"

No, he has no extra extra information that what is presented. The same as your players do not get to meta-game the monsters ability by trying to look them up.

If I can't determine that by the background of the monster/roleplay/story etc, then I -do- allow monsters knowledge rolls to see what they do know about player capacities. Hey, they give those monsters skills for a reason.

Full power information is usually removed from that

But beyond that, that Fighter's Combat Challenge only works as a surprise -once- against an intellegent monster. After that, he -knows- what is up. And trying to keep a secret technique from Vecna? Don't even make me laugh.

Yes, they clearly know what is up once they've been hit with a power, but that does not mean they know before then, which many people imply.

Vecna is the god of secrets, not the God of knowing all secrets.

 

[Stalker0]

Pretty much every post above mine has answered the OP correctly.

However, let's bump up the complexity a bit

While a creature absolutely knows he is marked (a creature always knows what conditions are on him), there is nothing in the rules that says he knows what a fighter's combat challenge and combat superiority ability (aka the ability to stop movement and the ability to hit creatures that shift or hit your buddy).

The fighter's ability are not powers, and are not intrinsic to the condition marked, ergo the monster doesn't know about that ability until they get whacked with it.

Now a paladin and a swordmage's mark are both powers placed on a creature, and a creature always knows the effects of powers placed upon him, so he does know the effects if he ignores the mark.

 

[boolean]

Once our paladin used Piercing Smite to kill one orc and mark other 2 that were attacking my fighter, while my fighter was marking and smashing their leader.

The Orc Leader desperately commanded the others to ignore the palladin and keep hitting me, so he could try to escape (coward!). What happened was that the 2 orc minions were instantly killed by the Paladin's Challenge.

Piercing Smite does not work like that. The damage from Divine Challenge is only applied to targets marked by Divine Challenge. Anything marked by any other means only takes the -2 penalty to attacks.

Monsters are also aware of the effects of any powers used on them (like Divine Challenge). This means that any monster you did challenge with DC knows the consequences of not attacking you.

Yes, every other type of mark is different. IIRC the paladin is pretty much the only character where the marking mechanic and the punishment for ignoring the mark are part of the same power.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, every other type of mark is different. IIRC the paladin is pretty much the only character where the marking mechanic and the punishment for ignoring the mark are part of the same power.

Swordmage, yo. Swordmage.

Not really. Players are not NPC's. Its just as reasonable to say "my character is level 21 and so should definitely know about all the powers these monsters have. I've been adventuring for 21 levels after all!"

No, he has no extra extra information that what is presented. The same as your players do not get to meta-game the monsters ability by trying to look them up.

That's not the principle at stake. The principle is: Does a player have to forget what trolls do to him whenever he fights a new troll? The answer is, "no, that's stupid." So does a monster have the possibility of having fought a Fighter previously in his life? If it is reasonably plausible the monster might have, then letting this information be available to the monster with a random chance is hardly unfair, nor does it lack versimiliatude.

-You- might run your games with monsters completely virgin to the concept of adventurers, but others do not, nor is it necessarily realistic that monsters don't have pre-PC experience.

Full power information is usually removed from that

Knowledge check, DC 20, +5 paragon tier, +10 epic tier. Straight from the PHB.

Yes, they clearly know what is up once they've been hit with a power, but that does not mean they know before then, which many people imply.

But it does not mean they do -not- know. A monster -might- know, it IS in the realm of possibility. And as such, adjudicating the knowledge a monster has with a knowledge check is fast, efficient, and it leads to more varied tactical situations.

Vecna is the god of secrets, not the God of knowing all secrets.

Combat Challenge is hardly one of those really dark secrets of the universe Vecna'd have trouble knowing about, unless your character is the only fighter in the entire world. Does Vecna know all 1,000,000 names of the Chained God? Maybe not. Does he know the chained god exists at the bottom of the Abyss? Most definately. And -that- is a bigger secret than Combat Challenge.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Piercing Smite does not work like that. The damage from Divine Challenge is only applied to targets marked by Divine Challenge. Anything marked by any other means only takes the -2 penalty to attacks.

Monsters are also aware of the effects of any powers used on them (like Divine Challenge). This means that any monster you did challenge with DC knows the consequences of not attacking you.

Yes, every other type of mark is different. IIRC the paladin is pretty much the only character where the marking mechanic and the punishment for ignoring the mark are part of the same power.

I found out about that after posting this yestarday. We were doing it wrong.

Thank you anyway.


DracoSuave,

I think I respectfully disagree with your perspective. Monsters using knowledge skills to identify that does not seems fair to me. Players Nature to identify an Orc, not a Soldier. Using this as a reference, they maybe could know that a dwarf can resist forced movement and that dragonborn can use breath weapons.

I think making these checks to give monsters tactical information about class abilities are a bit too much to most monsters. We would never allow that to PCs.

On top of that: the monsters - even the epic ones - does not necessary need to have had "previous PC experiences". Try to remmember how many monsters are Paragon or Epic for their size and raw power alone. Imagine that huge elemental beasts that never actually met a human and so on.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think making these checks to give monsters tactical information about class abilities are a bit too much to most monsters. We would never allow that to PCs.

The abilities a monster might have because of their training are not differentiated from other powers. So a knowledge check on an Orc, for instance, will give you a good idea of what capabilities he has. Knowledge of a monster is not relegated to anatomy. Look at every monster knowledge blurb in the MM for monsters with a society; look! Cultural and societal information.

Now, let's say I asked you to tell me about Persians during the battle of thermopylae. Would you tell me of their physical descriptions? Or would you tell me that these guys had an elite group of warriors called the Immortals? And does knowledge of how to fight greeks not include the word 'phalanx' in there?

If you can get cultural information, you can get information about likely battle tactics, abilities, and forms--especially if you have proffessional level capacity in battle, tactics, and abilities. An adventurer would certainly apply here.

A capable combat-ready monster has a chance to see a combatant, and go 'Well, let's see. He holds his sword in a defensive manner, with constantly harrassing attacks and feints. If I turn my back on him, he'll use that opportunity to attack me.' This isn't mystical crazy secret stuff here, this is someone who understands fighting trying to survive, and possibly trained in how to counter other fighting styles.

I cannot -possibly- see how it is unfair that players can use their plentiful skills but monsters cannot use them in -the exact same way.- In terms of skill use the players already have their advantage. If, every so often, a swordmage goes 'Wait, how did he know about that swordmage aegis?' it's not completely mindbending to say 'Look, this guy happens to be the head magician for the kingdom of Magiciania, a place that has a standing army of mages, sorcerers, spellcasters, and yes, even swordmages. I think that with his vast knowledge of arcane mysteries, he might have seen your spell a couple times, or even be able to deduce what it does with a simple check.'

And when the Avenger goes 'How did that guy know about my Oath of Emnity?' sometimes 'He's the high priest of Vecna' should be enough of an explanation.

The alternative is hitting every single monster the players come against with the Idiot Ball which is completely unbelievable and is NOT good storytelling.

Should -every- monster be omnipotent? Hell no. Should the occasional monster know what the players bring to the fight? Sure. Should all monsters be ignorant? Hell no.

The middle ground is the best way to adjudicate that, and if that means rolling some dice, a knowledge check is a fine way to do so in cases where knowledge is plausible but not certain.

'But it's not fair!' is a kneejerk reaction. Prove that it is not fair. And while you're at it, explain why certain monsters -have- knowledge skills if they cannot use them? What is the point of giving them these abilities? Isn't the point of 4e edition monster design to give them stuff they can actually -use-?

 

[DracoSuave]

DracoSuave,

I think I respectfully disagree with your perspective. Monsters using knowledge skills to identify that does not seems fair to me. Players Nature to identify an Orc, not a Soldier. Using this as a reference, they maybe could know that a dwarf can resist forced movement and that dragonborn can use breath weapons.

Respectfully, the PHB and MM disagree on this. Powers (I.e. combat abilities) are well within the realm of the Monster knowledge. Monster knowledge at low levels of success tell you 'That's a goblin' but at higher levels tell you 'That's a hexer with concealment magic, and that guy over there is a berserker will get angry if he is bloodied.' Knowledge of individual powers is DC 20 + tier mod. It is not restricted to the common powers of the race (the rules don't actually see those in any way)

I think making these checks to give monsters tactical information about class abilities are a bit too much to most monsters. We would never allow that to PCs.

Whether or not you do, that knowledge is what a monster knowledge check is supposed to give.

On top of that: the monsters - even the epic ones - does not necessary need to have had "previous PC experiences". Try to remmember how many monsters are Paragon or Epic for their size and raw power alone. Imagine that huge elemental beasts that never actually met a human and so on.

Now this part I -do- agree with, totally. Not every monster, even epic monster, has experience in combat. However that's not the same as 'No monster can gleen combat information with a knowledge check.' That's not even close. If the monster doesn't have that skill, then it's reasonable to assume 'Well, he just doesn't have that knowledge.' And that's cool.

But if the monster -does- have training in the pertinent knowledge pertaining to that character, then it's incorrect to then say 'but he doesn't know anything about it.' That's contradictory. In such a case, I might grant the monster a knowledge check.

That's the important distinction, it's not that -every- monster gets a check, it's that any monster that could plausibly know it gets a check. Does the warforged that just came active as the party walked in the room get knowledge checks? Probably not. Does the Lord of Blades? Probably does.

So, really, look at it this way:

If it is impossible for a monster to know, then obviously don't have the monster know. That's -obvious.-
If it is impossible for a monster to not know, than obviously, have the monster know. That's -obvious.-
If it is plausible for a monster to know, than give it a chance. Roll the dice, if you don't want to decide arbitrarily.

I do not understand how this is in any way unfair, especially because players have (and maintain) the advantage anyways. It's all part of 'playing the monster to its abilities and intellegence' which your players -deserve-.

 

[Regicide]

I cannot -possibly- see how it is unfair that players can use their plentiful skills but monsters cannot use them in -the exact same way.-

It's no stetch of the imagination that monsters can't use skills the same way players can since they don't get powers like players do or use healing surges or anything else. Look at Vecna, he can't even cast a cantrip! It's pretty clear from the books that monsters and PCs are different in every way.

 

[Flipguarder]

The discussion between dracosuave and dr sage is an interesting one. The addition I would like to add is that from a strictly gameplay pov it would be much less fun for the defender if the majority (or even a large minority) of the things he fights understand the role and abilities of a defender.

Here's why:

The defender is the only role that is specifically built around decieving the monster. You are spending every action attempting to get all the monsters in the area to attack you. If you are simply unable to do your job because everything you fight understands that, and ignores you at every turn, that is a terrible way to play any game.

As a DM however, I believe that monster knowledge checks should yield something. I believe that racials are the most reasonable things to issue to monsters who make knowledge checks on players. The most awesome of checks resulting in the preferred classes for that race.