The CR system and 50-point buy!

[DirtySkeptic]

During my groups character creation session (I'm the DM), My players rolled up their stats. Horrifically and miraculously, their stats all pretty much average 50 points each! (well, most of them do, I'm going to let those with much lower scores have extra points to bring them up to the other character's power). Now this presents a great conundrum for me. The CR/EL system is based around characters with around 25-points worth of stats. However, since the characters have about double that amount of points, they likely have double the amount of power. Therefore, I now have figured two ways of dealing with this:

-Since they are twice as powerful, I'll count their ECL as double their regular. If they are level 2, they count as level 4. if level 6, they count as level 12. However, XP and treasure will still be given out as assumed for their level. If their level 6 (12) and go up against an EL 12 encounter, they will receive appropriate treasure and xp from a EL 6 encounter based on their level. If an EL 10 encounter, they will receive treasure and xp appropriate from a group of level 6 characters going up against an EL 4 encounter. You should get the idea.

-As above, except that since the EL of a group of monsters with similar CR is CR+X, where X is the number of monsters in the group, I would effectively count the character's ECL as their level + 2, since they would effectively count as 2 characters for the sake of their 50 points worth of stats.

On the positive side, both of these systems would effectively increase the 3.5 sweet-spot through the whole spectrum (level 4-15).

My game starts this weekend, and I need a solution very soon. Which of the two above options would you choose (unless you have any other ideas)?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Your first solution is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.

Even if they were "double power" at 1st level, they certainly wouldn't be "double power" at 6th level. CR doesn't work that way.

Your second solution is much closer: If you assume that "double power" is an accurate approximation, you're better off just adding +2 CR to each PC's level. Thus, at 1st level, challenge them with CR3 creatures; at 6th level, with CR8.

Here is another solution for you.

For each PC, arrange their scores from highest to lowest, then subtract 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. (This is the elite array.)

Add up the remaining total, and multiply by .1 (or just shift the decimal point 1 place to the left).

This is the approximate increase in CR (or ECL, if you prefer...) for that PC. You can take the average across all characters, adjusting encounters accordingly, but you will end up with the strongest characters having a bit of an easier go of it, and the weaker characters (relatively speaking) having a bit more trouble.

For example, a character with stats 18 (+3), 17 (+3), 15 (+2), 14 (+2), 14 (+4), and 10 (+2) has a CR adjustment of about +1.6 (3+3+2+2+4+2).


Of course, the BEST option is not to roll for ability scores AT ALL-- because, as you can see, it's quite dramatically broken if the die rolls fall outside the expected averages. You should be using point buy from the start. Congratulate your players for fine rolls, explain the problem, and start over.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Mind you this is based on my experience with Star Wars OCR/RCR, but I wouldn't go much further than increasing the CR's they can "handle" by +1.

As the party level gets higher and higher, those frakkin' awesome starting stats won't mean quite as much, although it probably means they won't be as dependent on magic items to boost their primary stats.

 

[Engilbrand]

Broken. Absolutely broken. Don't ever roll. That's just crazy...
Nonsense.
I love rolling ability scores. Point buy makes things too similar to me. I've played in plenty of games where the characters average a 15 or 16 instead of whatever else it would be. It's not as crazy as people think. Seriously. It's a couple of extra points which are very quickly outstripped by everything else going on. Trust me. I've run characters through adventures. Without buffing up the monsters, I've still be able to kill or almost kill quite a few heroes with 17s and 18s in their stats. You might want to buff your monsters and NPCs a little, but it's not going to be the same as tacking on a LA to a character. And the double thing? That's just crazy. While the point buy values might be double, the actual stats and abilities aren't double.

Stats for a 1st level Wizard

Stat 25 point buy 50 point buy
Str 8 10
Dex 13 16
Con 14 18
Int 16 18
Wis 10 12
Cha 10 10

Stats for a 1st level Paladin

Stat 25 point buy 50 point buy
Str 14 18
Dex 8 8
Con 15 18
Int 8 10
Wis 14 14
Cha 14 16

Maybe I have a different way of looking at things, but I just don't see that 50 point column as twice the power as the 25 point column. This doesn't take into account anything. Race, feats and items can still change everything. Is there a difference in power? Absolutely. I wouldn't recommend these two characters playing in the same game. But a team of 50 point people can play through the game normally. If you need to give monsters more hitpoints instead of just half, then give them more. Figure out the maximum number and put it in between. Throw in an extra orc or give a bad guy a class level. That's all that really needs to be done for "balance" reasons.
Plus, if they already have decent stats, you might find them a little more likely to look at interesting magic items instead of just saying, "How much for my next +2?"

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Stats for a 1st level Wizard

Stat 25 point buy 50 point buy
Str 8 10
Dex 13 16
Con 14 18
Int 16 18
Wis 10 12
Cha 10 10

Stats for a 1st level Paladin

Stat 25 point buy 50 point buy
Str 14 18
Dex 8 8
Con 15 18
Int 8 10
Wis 14 14
Cha 14 16

Maybe I have a different way of looking at things, but I just don't see that 50 point column as twice the power as the 25 point column. This doesn't take into account anything. Race, feats and items can still change everything.

Ok, let's talk items then.

Take your paladin from the first column and give them ALL of the following, ALL at 1st level:

Belt of Giant Strength +4
Amulet of Health +3
Circlet of INT +2
Cloak of CHA +2

And then, when they actually find such items, inform them that they can wear TWO of each and they'll stack.

This will put them on the same playing field as column 2.

Is there a difference in power? Absolutely.

Ya think?

Throw in an extra orc or give a bad guy a class level. That's all that really needs to be done for "balance" reasons.

Your advice is basically, "Ignore the fact that these characters are broken. Hand wave it. Pretend it's not relevant."

That's certainly an option.

Any DM who would trade the potential complete collapse of his campaign, and/or all the extra work it takes to rebalance the game, in favor of FIVE MINUTES OF FUN rolling up ability scores is not a DM I would trust.

In my opinion, obviously. YMMV.

 

[Voadam]

High attributes are only one factor in character power, gestalt gives another similar power boost but the characters are still limited by level, wealth, and number of actions per round.

I would consider them a 1 or 2 ECL boost at most for figuring challenges. At low levels they are still vulnerable due to hp and low wealth stuff and low saves. The things to watch out for at low levels are str bonus to hit and damage, dex for AC, Con for hp, and things that give bonuses based solely on attribute bonuses (paladin save bonuses, monk AC, etc.)

At high levels their weak saves won't be that boosted by good stats and their bonuses from stats pale in general compared to the power from their levels. Very few things are attribute bonus x level.

 

[S'mon]

My experience of 50 point characters in 3e is that they are "eggshells armed with hammers" (the old description of battleships). They hit really hard, but are only slightly more durable than 25 point characters. If you challenge them with monsters of +2 CR over what you'd use on 25 point PCs, you will regularly kill them.

The best approach then is just to use slightly more opponents than usual, not tougher opponents. 50 point PCs are not, no how, twice as powerful as 25 point (and anyway an ECL 12 encounter is 2x2x2=8 times as tough as an ECL 6 one!). Instead of using 2 CR 3 ogres on the level 5 party, use 3. Instead of 1 CR 5 monster, use a CR 6 monster. That's about all the change I'd make.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

My experience of 50 point characters in 3e is that they are "eggshells armed with hammers" (the old description of battleships). They hit really hard, but are only slightly more durable than 25 point characters. If you challenge them with monsters of +2 CR over what you'd use on 25 point PCs, you will regularly kill them.

It does depend on the monster, and how it comes by that extra +2 CR (ie, SR? DR? save-or-die effects? etc.)

However, it is worth noting, that within the assumptions of the CR system, twice as many creatures is the same as +2 CR. Two CR 6 = One CR8.

Of course you might just be on the same page as me with regards to the accuracy of those assumptions.

 

[Wiseblood]

Stats are a feel good thing. Good stats you like bad stats are unpleasant. They make a big difference at 1st level and begin their decline.

Example:In our party there is a warblade that is literally a 52 point buy ( he did not roll stats, it may be a goof or special exception from the DM). In the hands of an expirienced player to boot. I rolled my stats and am the equivalent of a 21 point buy I am also a warblade. His high score is a 19 mine is a 16. When we started at 4th level he was slightly better in combat than I was. Now at 6th level we are all but identical. He has 3 more HPs an AC 1 point better and an attack bonus 2 points higher. He has more skill points and is roughly able to do one more thing outside of combat than I can. My expirience is anecdotal but it has shown me that stats might make you feel better but they aren't game breaking.

BTW The point buy for the campaign was 36 and there is more than one character that I frequently outshine in combat. Our two warblades are the lowest level characters in the party and two of the higher level characters are built for combat.

While you are certainly entitled to your opinion of what you feel is over-powered
I will continue to rely on expirience. (I would encourage others to do the same.)

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Here is another solution for you.

For each PC, arrange their scores from highest to lowest, then subtract 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. (This is the elite array.)

Add up the remaining total, and multiply by .1 (or just shift the decimal point 1 place to the left).

This is the approximate increase in CR (or ECL, if you prefer...) for that PC. You can take the average across all characters, adjusting encounters accordingly, but you will end up with the strongest characters having a bit of an easier go of it, and the weaker characters (relatively speaking) having a bit more trouble.

For example, a character with stats 18 (+3), 17 (+3), 15 (+2), 14 (+2), 14 (+4), and 10 (+2) has a CR adjustment of about +1.6 (3+3+2+2+4+2).


Of course, the BEST option is not to roll for ability scores AT ALL-- because, as you can see, it's quite dramatically broken if the die rolls fall outside the expected averages. You should be using point buy from the start. Congratulate your players for fine rolls, explain the problem, and start over.

The main reason I believe a 50-point-buy PC is not "twice as powerful" is the premium cost point-buy places on higher stats. So, I would use your solution with a difference in ability bonus instead of ability:

For example, a character with stats 18 (+2), 17 (+1), 15 (+1), 14 (+1), 14 (+2), and 10 (+1) has a CR adjustment of about +0.8 (2+1+1+1+2+1).