D&D General The Crab Bucket Fallacy

To you, apparently. Not to many others.

For me, only not having the option to put 1 in each pillar would be a problem, and 5e doesn’t do that. Backgrounds by themselves allow you to put at least 1 wherever you want.
Exactly.

A Character is built out of various containers.

Species, Class, Background, and Feats.

Why does Fighter, or Barb, need to contribute to Social? If I choose to build my character to contribute with a different rules container, so be it.
 

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The Goalie doesnt. How many NFL linemen are running routes and working on their tackling?

To suggest gamers dont optimize, in the face of the REAMS of "I need 16 baseline in my primary or my character cannot function!" nonsense? Come on.
As soon as I saw the analogy by @EzekielRaiden I knew someone would attack the analogy rather than the point. This is why you avoid analogies unless it is water tight.

The thing with the goalie, if we want to stretch this analogy even further, is that the goalie in this case does not need to shoot as you point out. But the problem is that the wizard (which is, I guess, not a goalie in the analogy-world) is just as good as being a goalie as the goalie. Except the wizard can also shoot.
 

As soon as I saw the analogy by @EzekielRaiden I knew someone would attack the analogy rather than the point. This is why you avoid analogies unless it is water tight.

The thing with the goalie, if we want to stretch this analogy even further, is that the goalie in this case does not need to shoot as you point out. But the problem is that the wizard (which is, I guess, not a goalie in the analogy-world) is just as good as being a goalie as the goalie. Except the wizard can also shoot.

Sure, and the fighter can roll for deception.
 

Exactly.

A Character is built out of various containers.

Species, Class, Background, and Feats.

Why does Fighter, or Barb, need to contribute to Social? If I choose to build my character to contribute with a different rules container, so be it.
Because it's a pillar. You are literally told that this is an important part of play.

Sure, and the fighter can roll for deception.
And what stops the Wizard from doing the exact same thing?

Indeed, what stops them from doing it with any of various bonuses? Friends is a cantrip. Enhance ability is a 2nd-level spell, and a pretty good one because of its extreme flexibility.
 


Who cares? It's a party game. The party faces the pillars, not individuals.
Leaving players completely incapable of contributing to something--beyond the absolute rock bottom literally anyone could do in their place--is bad.

If it's something you actually want to opt into, where you actively go out of your way to exclude things you could've gotten, fine. Do as you like.

But don't force me to do it simply because I wrote "Fighter" on my character sheet.

Or, to turn your own questioning back at you: Why should I be shackled by your lack of interest, simply because I like playing martial characters?
 

The Goalie doesnt. How many NFL linemen are running routes and working on their tackling?

To suggest gamers dont optimize, in the face of the REAMS of "I need 16 baseline in my primary or my character cannot function!" nonsense? Come on.
To be fair, the data has always shown that most players don’t optimize. It’s mostly the ones that come on D&D message boards and subreddits that do.
Exactly.

A Character is built out of various containers.

Species, Class, Background, and Feats.

Why does Fighter, or Barb, need to contribute to Social? If I choose to build my character to contribute with a different rules container, so be it.
Absolutely. My last wizard had no social ability either. And Charm Person isn’t mind control, it just causes the target to see you as a friendly aquaintence. (I didn’t take it, because it still squicks me out, but still)

People act like the wizard just automatically has all these social options, but they don’t. They’ve a few spells they can take that still don’t amount to what a 14 Cha and proficiency in Persuasion can do.
 

To be fair, the data has always shown that most players don’t optimize. It’s mostly the ones that come on D&D message boards and subreddits that do.

Absolutely. My last wizard had no social ability either. And Charm Person isn’t mind control, it just causes the target to see you as a friendly aquaintence. (I didn’t take it, because it still squicks me out, but still)

People act like the wizard just automatically has all these social options, but they don’t. They’ve a few spells they can take that still don’t amount to what a 14 Cha and proficiency in Persuasion can do.
But the Wizard does automatically have all these social options. They just can choose not to pick them up, if they aren't interested. The Fighter does not get that choice. It is denied to them. THAT is the issue here.

You are advocating for forcing Fighter fans to never get that option. As they consistently have been--well, in all but the perennial exception to D&D trends.
 

The issue is that D&D 5e is a one check system with condensed skill list
🤷 That's certainly an issue, in itself. Ability checks are limited in what they can do, binary, and with little wiggle room. Under BA, only the most specialized of Experts can make a skill check somewhat reliably that most of their buddies couldn't hope to make. Who 'contributes' with a successful skill check is almost random. It's, what, the Bard & Rogue that get expertise? Really, those two classes, in skills they can afford a high stat in & take expertise in, are the only ones that can point to exceptional skill as a meaningful contribution, and, even then, only at a level where proficiency bonuses get significant.

OTOH, That the skill list is "condensed" (to be only slightly larger than the prior edition, and padded out by Tool proficiencies?) is not part of the problem. The larger the skill list, the more incompetence there is to go around, and the further behind that puts PCs wholly dependent on mundane skills.

As bad as that sounds, it's not as bad as 3.x, which had a voluminous skill list, and a progression that caused you to fall ever further behind in all but the handful you specialized in. 😬
 


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