The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)

Nagol said:
(i.e. it is presented to them to read)

Why on earth would you do that? Do you hand over the monster's stat blocks and round-by-round tactics plans at the beginning of combat? Do you let the players read the DM notes on which power groups are out to betray them?
 

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I don't have time to dig the quotes up right now, but several SC GMs on this site have said they do challenges both ways -- as a disclosed mini-game and as a closed scenario. Why they do it? I don't know; I'm sure they have rationales.
 

DCs for what?

You don't know because that is the nature of SCs.
Every challenge has a DC, but every skill in every way has the same DC? And this is in some way "the nature of the bear?"

<snip>

But the way I see the nature of a bear the DC that should be modeled onto them is going to vary wildly from skill to skill and the effectiveness of each skill is going to also vary wildly.
I see.

In 4e the DCs may vary from skill to skill - examples of this are given in various pulished skill challenges. But they won't vary wildly. At 1st level, the suggested range is from 6 to 20, with most clustering around 10 to 14.
 

Ok, that is good to know and certainly reduces one of my concerns significantly.

The defining factors going in to the SC are more narrative based than I understood. Obviously I could transition into the whole discussion about how DCs are set in the first place in 4E. But that is really a 4E at large issue and not an SC issue. So we will call that one for you.

Now, fix the issue of mechanics control the "pace" (to use your agreed to word) and I'll concede.
 

Changing your approach mid-stream only serves a purpose if the new approach has a better expected outcome (i.e. is more optimal).
I don't think this is true. Changing your approach might also serve a purpose if you think a different fictional end state would be better. For exmample, if you don't want to anger the bear, you might stop trying to intimidate, taking the view that it's better to risk failing to tame it then to risk it being enraged when you've failed to tame it.

And it is because these sorts of considerations are generally quite important that I find it a curious suggestion that the fiction doesn't matter in a skill challenge.
 

And it is because these sorts of considerations are generally quite important that I find it a curious suggestion that the fiction doesn't matter in a skill challenge.
You keep changing this.
The fiction matters. BUT the fiction is required to follow the mechanics and the mechanics will not follow the fiction.
No straw men please.
 

BryonD, with the DC issue cleared up I think we're not that far apart on our characterisation of skill challenges.

Now, fix the issue of mechanics control the "pace" (to use your agreed to word) and I'll concede.
Well, to my mind this is where the real difference in preferences is. Obviously I can't speak for you or for Raven Crowking. But it seems to me that the logic of the "fiction-first" approach is that pacing is a consequence of ingame reality.

The logic of skill challenges is that metagame pacing concerns are imposed on the ingame reality. If you don't like this I think you'll find it hard to like skill challenges. I think you'll also find it hard to like 4e combat, because 4e combat has taken out all the sorts of things RC referred to in his post upthread that meliorate the "mechanics first" in AD&D combat. In 4e combat, hit points, AC, to-hit bonuses and so in many ways resemble AD&D, but rather than an attempt to model the ingame reality they have been designed as pacing mechanics.

Healing surges are the same, in my view. The most distinctive thing about healing surges isn't that they come back after each day's rest - this could easily be houseruled without having much impact on the mechanical balance of 4e, although it would of course affect the strategic play of the game. The distinctive thing about healing surges is the effect they have on the pacing of combat - as the combat goes on, the players find ways to bring their reserve of surges into play, thereby getting the upperhand on the monsters, who run out of hp and can't replenish them.

4e is the first version of D&D, I think, where there has been deliberate effort made to tailor the mechanics so as to support particular metagame pacing goals.
 

I don't think this is true. Changing your approach might also serve a purpose if you think a different fictional end state would be better. For exmample, if you don't want to anger the bear, you might stop trying to intimidate, taking the view that it's better to risk failing to tame it then to risk it being enraged when you've failed to tame it.

And it is because these sorts of considerations are generally quite important that I find it a curious suggestion that the fiction doesn't matter in a skill challenge.

I can see pressure to change direction in a few situations:

1) the situation changes and you need to change your activity to respond. The goal is to find a reaction to the change that offers the best chance to work toward your goal.

2) The PCs have rethought their strategy and want a different end state. Unless the change allows you to "reset" some failures at the cost of successes, it is an inherently more dangerous route to take if any failures are tallied (unless the successes are unaffected in which case how different a end state can you drive with the same successes and failures?). If the difficulty is not the same, it becomes even more risky.

3) You discover a more optimal set of activities to drive towards the end state.
 


If you don't like this I think you'll find it hard to like skill challenges. I think you'll also find it hard to like 4e combat, because 4e combat has taken out all the sorts of things RC referred to in his post upthread that meliorate the "mechanics first" in AD&D combat.

Bingo.

While I believe 4e is D&D, the game is not ze same.

Play the one you prefer, but don't assume that others are "wrong" not to prefer the same edition, or that they simply don't understand!

(And that last comment is a general one, and certainly not directed at pemerton, who has never needed anyone to tell him the same!)


RC
 
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