The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)

[Lanefan]

Because, what does it mean when the road doesn't lead to Rome for me?

That you're going to Albuquerque?

Lan-"the road goes ever ever on"-efan

 

[Hussar]

Again, still not helpful, because that list of questions includes my experiences with Stormbringer, Earthdawn, Harn, Talisantha, and dozens of other FRPGs, etc. And I'm not sure most people who play those games OR D&D would feel comfortable with that definition of the "D&D experience."

Hell, but for 2 of those questions, that covers most of my experiences in Sci-Fi RPGs, Superheroic RPGs, and gaming in general...and could include some campaigns set in Star Wars or RIFTS, for that matter.

IOW, if that's what Mercurious is aiming for, its a useless definition because it is overbroad.

(And FWIW, I do consider Spelljammer to be D&D.)

The list wasn't meant to be exhaustive. But, since it does exclude your SF rpg's it's a good start. So, what differentiates Earthdawn from D&D? Or Harn?

I'd say Harn differentiates because it's based so strongly in sim play. That's the point of using Harn - to model as best as possible, a certain reality.

Earthdawn doesn't use classes or levels does it?

Stormbringer is based on a single series of fiction, so, it differentiates because it's not broad enough.

As far as "sitting around a table" goes Shadzar - I didn't actually specify sitting around the SAME table did I? Please, let's not get too caught up in pedantry shall we? Everyone is still sitting around a table when playing online. And, eating snacks.

 

[Lanefan]

As far as "sitting around a table" goes Shadzar - I didn't actually specify sitting around the SAME table did I? Please, let's not get too caught up in pedantry shall we? Everyone is still sitting around a table when playing online. And, eating snacks.

Which brings up yet another variable: is there such a thing as virtual Rome and can it also be shoehorned in here somewhere?

To me, there isn't. It ain't D+D - hell, it's barely even gaming at all - to me unless I'm sitting around the same table as the DM and other players and can if needs must throw something at them.

Lan-"if you throw it at me, it's mine"-efan

 

[shadzar]

As far as "sitting around a table" goes Shadzar - I didn't actually specify sitting around the SAME table did I?

Toupee! ....touche? one of them....

So then WoW and the rest fit the D&D experience satisfies you, IF using that inexhaustive list?

If so, how can you tailor the list so it does not include WoW, but still include NeverWinter Nights and DDO?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The list wasn't meant to be exhaustive. But, since it does exclude your SF rpg's it's a good start. So, what differentiates Earthdawn from D&D? Or Harn?

I'd say Harn differentiates because it's based so strongly in sim play. That's the point of using Harn - to model as best as possible, a certain reality.

Earthdawn doesn't use classes or levels does it?

Stormbringer is based on a single series of fiction, so, it differentiates because it's not broad enough.

Fair enough, we're getting more refinement.

But so far, that still lets us add Palladium RPG to the list. And HERO or GURPs "D&D clone" campaign.

And I'm not sure that being a "sim" excludes Harn, since some people play some very gritty, realistic games of D&D...not to mention D&D offshoots like Iron Heroes. Harn may be a stronger sim than D&D, but that in and of itself ejects it from the class. After all, that would lead us down the path of eliminating 3.X from the tent (many consider it the "sim"-iest incarnation of the game).

 

[Mercurius]

You're still not getting me.

Danny, I think I am getting you but you are butchering my analogy. You either don't understand the analogy or you are deliberately misusing it to continue an argument that I have no interest in continuing (that this whole thread is about bypassing, actually!).

Seeing as I have no reason to think you are a nasty fellow, I am left to believe that you simply don't understand what I mean by "Rome." You keep saying that "4E is not Rome" - yes, Danny, that's the whole point of the analogy - but no edition is Rome, not even your favorite one. Rather, your favorite one is a road that gets you to "Rome", which is the "D&D Experience" that I have explained numerous times and have no interest in explaining again.

I would suggest that if A) you don't understand the analogy, re-read the thread, if B) you are deliberately misusing it...well, I don't know what to say.

 

[Hussar]

Toupee! ....touche? one of them....

So then WoW and the rest fit the D&D experience satisfies you, IF using that inexhaustive list?

If so, how can you tailor the list so it does not include WoW, but still include NeverWinter Nights and DDO?

Well, WoW wouldn't fit because it's not a role playing game. That's a pretty easy one to discount. Nothing in WoW actually presumes that you are attempting to role play your character. While you can role play in WoW, the game does not in any way actually reward you for doing so.

And, I'm not sure I would include Neverwinter Nights or DDO for exactly the same reason. Neither game actually rewards or presumes that you are role playing your character. The fact that you can doesn't really matter. RPG's presume that you are role playing the character and actually directly reward you for doing so. Or, in the case of AD&D, punish you through training rules for not doing so.

Fair enough, we're getting more refinement.

But so far, that still lets us add Palladium RPG to the list. And HERO or GURPs "D&D clone" campaign.

And I'm not sure that being a "sim" excludes Harn, since some people play some very gritty, realistic games of D&D...not to mention D&D offshoots like Iron Heroes. Harn may be a stronger sim than D&D, but that in and of itself ejects it from the class. After all, that would lead us down the path of eliminating 3.X from the tent (many consider it the "sim"-iest incarnation of the game).

Palladium, GURPS and Hero are not class based. That right there takes them outside of the D&D experience.

I've never actually played Harn. Is it class based?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Palladium, GURPS and Hero are not class based. That right there takes them outside of the D&D experience.

Palladium most definitely uses classes: they call them O.C.Cs (Occupational Character Classes) and it has a level advancement system as well.

The GURPS and HERO "D&D clone" campaigns have the same races, spells and classes and levels as you'd find in D&D because the GM builds them in. There is not one spell, power, SLA or what have you in D&D you can't model in HERO. Its as easy as pie. (Tedious, perhaps, but easy.)

I've not done it for GURPS, but to add levels, all a GM in HERO would have to do to have levels is not allow players to spend XP until they accumulate to a certain point. If you're doing an AD&D/2Ed clone, you make separate XP charts for each class; for a 3.X clone, you have only one XP chart.

(And, FWIW, you can run a D&D clone with W&W/M&M, which has Power Levels.)

As for Harn, its been so long since I played it or Talisantha- more than a decade for each- that I've forgotten.

 

[shadzar]

Well, WoW wouldn't fit because it's not a role playing game. That's a pretty easy one to discount. Nothing in WoW actually presumes that you are attempting to role play your character. While you can role play in WoW, the game does not in any way actually reward you for doing so.

And, I'm not sure I would include Neverwinter Nights or DDO for exactly the same reason. Neither game actually rewards or presumes that you are role playing your character. The fact that you can doesn't really matter. RPG's presume that you are role playing the character and actually directly reward you for doing so. Or, in the case of AD&D, punish you through training rules for not doing so.

WoW not a role playing game. All I can say to that is WOW!

NWN and DDO do not reward for role playing your character? How not?

They offer XP for killing things, and fit all your other criteria for the "D&D Experience".

If NWN and DDO do not provide the "D&D experience", then I guess Dungeons and Dragons 1977 does not provide the "D&D Experience" also.

How can a, no not a, THE FIRST instance of Dungeon and Dragons not provide the "D&D Experience"?

It rewards for the same things as NWN and DDO. So wait...we can have the "D&D Experience" with some, but not all of the D&D RPG products; AND we can have it with products that are not even D&D?

Are all roads leading to the same place? Is Rome the "D&D Experience", or is it just fantasy escapism?

What is Rome?

 

[Hussar]

I'll admit the only Palladium I've played is TMNT and a brief stint of Rifts, ages ago. TMNT didn't have classes, so, I'm not entirely sure about Palladium.

The fact that you have to rebuild Hero to emulate D&D doesn't really negate my point. If you've rebuilt Hero to the point where it's simulating D&D, is it really all that different of a game? Of course, the base Hero system doesn't presume that. So, basically, you're playing D&D using a different system. At that point, why not just use D&D?

The same thing goes for GURPS. If you've modded the game to the point where you're essentially playing D&D, just with a different system, are you still playing the base system anymore?

IOW, why bring up homebrewing various systems to emulate D&D? If someone goes through Hero, to the point where they've entirely recreated every single power, SLA and whatnot from D&D, I'd say they've bloody well EARNED the right to call themselves D&D players.

But, it's sort of pointless to talk about how you can play D&D with other systems. We can talk about homebrews all you like, but, the basic point still remains. HERO is not D&D because it's not a level based fantasy system. GURPS is not a level based fantasy system. Palladium is mostly point buy AFAIK, so, again, it's not exactly D&D either, although it's pretty close.

Then again, most Palladium players would not call themselves D&D players. Because they are deliberately choosing to play Palladium and not D&D.