The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)

[Dannyalcatraz]

<snip>What is Rome?

My point: its not a useful metaphor.

 

[Hussar]

WoW not a role playing game. All I can say to that is WOW!

NWN and DDO do not reward for role playing your character? How not?

They offer XP for killing things, and fit all your other criteria for the "D&D Experience".

If NWN and DDO do not provide the "D&D experience", then I guess Dungeons and Dragons 1977 does not provide the "D&D Experience" also.

How can a, no not a, THE FIRST instance of Dungeon and Dragons not provide the "D&D Experience"?

It rewards for the same things as NWN and DDO. So wait...we can have the "D&D Experience" with some, but not all of the D&D RPG products; AND we can have it with products that are not even D&D?

Are all roads leading to the same place? Is Rome the "D&D Experience", or is it just fantasy escapism?

What is Rome?

Really? What XP do I get for acting in character in any CRPG? How am I rewarded for being a Paladin vs being an Cleric? Do I gain more xp for healing someone as a cleric? I certainly do in 2e D&D. Am I forced to spend more money training if I run away as a fighter? I certainly do in 1e D&D.

Does OD&D use training rules? I actually don't know.

From AD&D forward, the rules presume that you are actually role playing and reward (or punish you) for such.

WoW and other CRPG's don't. I can play a paladin in NWN and steal everything not nailed down and not suffer any penalties.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The fact that you have to rebuild Hero to emulate D&D doesn't really negate my point. If you've rebuilt Hero to the point where it's simulating D&D, is it really all that different of a game? Of course, the base Hero system doesn't presume that. So, basically, you're playing D&D using a different system. At that point, why not just use D&D?

1) Its not really modding if the system can do it. Levels are just a matter of telling players when (IOW, how often) they can spend their XP. D&D races and classes are just a matter of making "package deals"- a standard device for HERO, used to model family bloodlines, afflictions like lycanthropy, creature types like undead, vampires and elementals, mutants, RW occupations like police officer, etc. The only thing is making them into D&D lycanthropes, undead, vampires and elementals, as opposed to those you'd find in standard Fantasy HERO, WoD, Palladium, or what have you.

2) You do this because you have players who want to play a FRPG campaign but have little to no familiarity with D&D and lots of familiarity with HERO. Which does describe RW groups of which I have been a member.

3) You do this because its even more flexible than the game you're cloning. While I can model the D&D fireball with an AoE RKA, I can also come up with an infinite number of variants on the fireball, covering 3.X metamagic versions, class effects, and things that don't exist in the game...such as a Fireball that simultaneously turns you into a winged frog AND teleports you to France.

IOW, why bring up homebrewing various systems to emulate D&D?

Because I get more of the same feel from a HERO D&D clone as I do from pre-4Ed D&D than I do from 4Ed D&D itself. If "feel" is the point of contention, then a HERO D&D clone, to me, feels more like D&D than 4Ed.

Palladium is mostly point buy

Not really. You get rolls that set your base stats and then modify them with benefits gained from skills, race and class.

 

[Hussar]

Because I get more of the same feel from a HERO D&D clone as I do from pre-4Ed D&D than I do from 4Ed D&D itself. If "feel" is the point of contention, then a HERO D&D clone, to me, feels more like D&D than 4Ed.

But, that's the entire point. It doesn't matter what you feel. If someone else feels that X gives them the D&D experience, then it does. That you don't is irrelavent. You don't like that particular road. Cool.

To me, playing a Hero emulation of D&D probably wouldn't do it for me. Does that invalidate your experience? No, of course not. That's just one more road on the route to getting a D&D experience.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I think this is an issue that just begs to be exorcised, dealt with, psychologically and socially metabolized by the D&D community, or at least this community. As Jung said, the way out is through...

As with other aspects of the Shadow, certain personalities like to revisit their pain with a perverse, masochistic joy; even when doing so provides no psychological benefit.

The rationale which a neurotic invokes in this case is usually one of exploration; in fact, the desire is for the conflict (whether personal or interpersonal) to continue, as it lends meaning and purpose to the patient's life.

The horse is dead.

Really.

Very.

Dead.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Really? What XP do I get for acting in character in any CRPG? How am I rewarded for being a Paladin vs being an Cleric? Do I gain more xp for healing someone as a cleric? I certainly do in 2e D&D. Am I forced to spend more money training if I run away as a fighter? I certainly do in 1e D&D.

Does OD&D use training rules? I actually don't know.

From AD&D forward, the rules presume that you are actually role playing and reward (or punish you) for such.

WoW and other CRPG's don't. I can play a paladin in NWN and steal everything not nailed down and not suffer any penalties.

Erm...

You don't get xp for roleplay in 4e, you don't get more xp for healing someone as a cleric, you don't have training costs, and the rules don't reward or punish you if you don't roleplay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92652).

But I agree, WoW involves minimal roleplaying, but there are some people who will roleplay anyway. You CAN roleplay in WoW, it's just that it's mainly "solve quests and kill stuff for treasure and XP."



But, I'm dangerously close to implying that 4e is like WoW and that 4e is not D&D here...so I'll stop.



(seriously, don't hurt me )

 

[MerricB]

I'll admit the only Palladium I've played is TMNT and a brief stint of Rifts, ages ago. TMNT didn't have classes, so, I'm not entirely sure about Palladium.

Strictly speaking, TMNT has *one* class.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Erm...

You don't get xp for roleplay in 4e, you don't get more xp for healing someone as a cleric, you don't have training costs, and the rules don't reward or punish you if you don't roleplay ([4e] Paladins and Alignment - Giant in the Playground Forums).

But I agree, WoW involves minimal roleplaying, but there are some people who will roleplay anyway. You CAN roleplay in WoW, it's just that it's mainly "solve quests and kill stuff for treasure and XP."



But, I'm dangerously close to implying that 4e is like WoW and that 4e is not D&D here...so I'll stop.



(seriously, don't hurt me )

That would be wrong though. The whole Skill Challenge ruleset awards xp for non-combat and role play. Additionally, the Quest rules give awards for role play and non-combat. 4ed rewards in character play to at very least the extent any other edition did.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But, that's the entire point. It doesn't matter what you feel. If someone else feels that X gives them the D&D experience, then it does. That you don't is irrelavent. You don't like that particular road. Cool.

Were that true, this thread would not exist. From start to finish, its ALL about feel.

Mercurious' impetus for starting this thread was to untangle and disarm the discussion of the phrase "4Ed is not D&D to me," a phrase that inspired reactions like "silly", "pointless" and "infantile" from those who clearly love the game.

"All Roads Lead to Rome"..."The D&D experience"..."distinct "signature" to the game of D&D, a feeling, a vibe, a gestalt of qualities, what I like to summarize as an experience."- every last bit Mercurious has posted about...its all about feel.

That you may not find a HERO D&D clone D&D-ish is both understandable. Its clearly not D&D to you...nor would it be to a lot of people.

Still, though, such a game IS to me...at least, much moreso than 4Ed is. Because of feel.

 

[Aberzanzorax]

Well, I was mostly just being playful, but I honestly don't see where 4e rewards roleplaying in ways that WoW does not.

My group may have done skill challenges wrong, but aren't they basically "pick a skill and apply it"? Rolling high, not roleplaying, being the chief factor? I admit, I may have an incorrect view of skill challenges.

Quest rules give rewards for non-combat achievement of goals, sure (that's present in WoW). Do they give rewards for roleplay?