The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)

We all share the one thing in common: We love the D&D experience. But we all "get there" by different means.
Your idea would work except for one thing: we are not all seeking the same singular experience in play. Thus, some would say that certain games are not roads to the experience of D&D, and we'd be still be in the same boat.
I tend to agree with Umbran on this.

I can and have run D&D-style games in HERO complete with races, spells and "classes" we'd all recognize; others have done likewise in GURPS.
And Rolemaster - many times I've posted here about my Rolemaster games without needing to indicate that it was Rolemaster, because it didn't matter (for the purposes of that discussion) that the various fantasy tropes that define the characters in the game are mechanically realised in a different way.

there are far more shared points between someone playing 4e and your game than someone playing, say, Mutants and Masterminds or Traveler.
Again, still not helpful, because that list of questions includes my experiences with Stormbringer, Earthdawn, Harn, Talisantha, and dozens of other FRPGs, etc. And I'm not sure most people who play those games OR D&D would feel comfortable with that definition of the "D&D experience."
On this point I tend to agree with Dannyalcatraz.

I believe, for example, that the experience of my previous RM game sand my current 4e game are much closer to one another than either is to the last (2nd ed) AD&D game that I played. Although the gross features of the mechanics - 3-18 stats, lots of polyhedral dice, etc - are more alike in the case of the two D&D games, for me at least this is only a modest part of the overall gaming experience.

I'll Palladium is mostly point buy AFAIK
Palladium Fantasy is a class-and-level based game with no points buy that I recall. It does have skill selection, but not on a points-buy basis (it's a bit more like 4e - you choose a certain number of skills from a class list).

D&D transcends and includes all versions, all editions, all perceptions of what it is. It is a Platonic Form which we all participate in in different ways, through different modalities.
I think Danny's point is that there is no such form. Putting to one side the various issues with Platonic Forms, I think it's uncontroversial to say that a group of things cannot fall under a given Form unless they all resemble one another in a greater number of salient respects than any of them resembles anything else. This is what makes them all particular instances of the one Form.

And I think Danny is right that, when it comes to fantasy RPGs, including the various editions of D&D, the type-constituting salient resemblances just aren't there.

I don't want to be disagreeing with you, because I like the motivation for your proposal. I just don't think it works.

And to try and be constructive (and also to show that others are equally capable of putting up proposals that probably don't work!): I think it would be helpful if posters were more prepared to speak frankly about what they are looking for in play, and to talk about what various mechanical and other aspects of different games - including D&D - would help them with this.

I think this proposal faces at least two problems, though. First, it depends upon the vocabulary being available to do this talking - and the only well-developed such vocabulary is the one the Forge uses, and there is a lot of hostility to the Forge on these boards.

Second, it depends upon people being willing to separate their discussion of RPGing and their RPG experiences from commercial questions about what company is publishing what. And that is not likely to happen on a fansite dedicated to products defined primarily by their relationship to a particular gaming company.

That's why, in the end, I'm inclined to agree with Lanefan - if the publisher has put D&D on the cover, then it's D&D, end of story.
 

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I don't want to be disagreeing with you, because I like the motivation for your proposal. I just don't think it works.

Which I agree with 100%, FWIW.

I don't want there to be tumult over a five word phrase, but there it is. When I say it, it is not meant to provoke or insult, but to express my viewpoint of my relationship to the game.
 

I think it would be helpful if posters were more prepared to speak frankly about what they are looking for in play, and to talk about what various mechanical and other aspects of different games - including D&D - would help them with this.

Many of us have...and out of that have sprung many an Edition Wars thread.
 

You don't get xp for roleplay in 4e
It depends what you mean by "roleplay".

4e doesn't have "Thespian" XP - it is not an important part of the game, therefore, whether players talk about their PCs in 3rd person or speak in 1st person (although some social interactions can be a bit stilted if done only in 3rd person).

4e does have quest XP, which is XP awarded to the group when one or more PCs achieve goals for those PCs. The guidelines for establishing quests aren't the best written, but include the following (DMG pp 102-103):

Don’t be shy about letting the players know what their quests are. Give the players an obvious goal . . .

You should allow and even encourage players to come up with their own quests that are tied to their individual goals or specific circumstances in the adventure. Evaluate the proposed quest and assign it a level. Remember to say yes as often as possible!​

For me, the best way to make sense of this is that quests are set by the GM in close collaboration with the players. This fits within a (non-Thespian) definition of rewarding roleplaying.

The DMG2 also has the following rule (p 25, under the heading "Drama Rewards"):

Award the characters experience as if they had defeated one monster of their level for every 15 minutes they spend in signficicant, focused roleplaying that advences the story of your campaign.​

And then, as Hussar pointed out, there are skill challenges.

My group may have done skill challenges wrong, but aren't they basically "pick a skill and apply it"? Rolling high, not roleplaying, being the chief factor? I admit, I may have an incorrect view of skill challenges.
Apologies in advance!, but you've just pressed the button in my brain that forces me to post the relevant rulebook text on skill challenges:

From the player’s point of view (PHB pp 179, 259):

Your DM sets the stage for a skill challenge by describing the obstacle you face and giving you some idea of the options you have in the encounter. Then you describe your actions and make checks until you either successfully complete the challenge or fail…

Whatever the details of a skill challenge, the basic structure of a skill challenge is straightforward. Your goal is to accumulate a specific number of victories (usually in the form of successful skill checks) before you get too many defeats (failed checks). It’s up to you to think of ways you can use your skills to meet the challenges you face.

From the GM’s point of view (DMG pp 72–75):

More so than perhaps any other kind of encounter, a skill challenge is defined by its context in an adventure…

Begin by describing the situation and defining the challenge. . . You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results...

When a player’s turn comes up in a skill challenge, let that player’s character use any skill the player wants. As long as the player or you can come up with a way to let this secondary skill play a part in the challenge, go for it…

In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . . This encourages players to think about the challenge in more depth…

However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing … Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.​

To me, this makes it pretty clear how a skill challenge works: the GM sets the scene and describes it to the players; the players explain how their PCs are engaging with that scene to achieve their goal; in doing this, the players also nominate skills as the mechanical implementation of how they are engaging; and the GM adjudicates such nominations, determines the difficulty if such a nomination is approved, and adjudicates the results of success or failure.

What these rules don't entirely spell out, but what is a pretty clear implication (and it's hinted at a bit in the example of play in the DMG p 77, and a bit better in the example of play in the Rules Compendium pp 162-63) is that the GM should also be narrating the result of each skill check - whether a success or a failure - in such a way as to set the context for the next PC (or perhaps the same PC again) to engage the ingame situation.

Played in this way (which, in light of the quotes and examples, I'm pretty confident is the intended way), a skill challenge is a roleplaying experience.

My impression is that a lot of 4e groups run skill challenges in the way you describe because they've been misled by the examples in the DMG and in the modules into assuming that the setup of the challenge involves the GM tellilng the players what skills to use, and what is going on in the gameworld when those skills are used.

But given the actual rules that I've quoted, the only way to make sense of the DMG examples is as GM's notes: the GM has noted the likely relevant skills, and the sorts of things that the players might do with them (just as, in prepping a combat encounter, a GM might note what the monsters will do in response to likely actions on the parts of the players). But these "GM's notes" are not a template that the players have to work their way through, any more than tactical notes in a combat encounter are a script for the players.

Skill challenges are very obviously based on action resolution mechanics in some indie or indie-style games like Maelstron Storytelling, HeroWars/Quest, The Dying Earth and Burning Wheel, and I think one reason they haven't taken off is because many D&D players aren't familiar with those games, and the WotC authors didn't do as good a job as they might have done explaining how they are meant to play out. (I don't mean to rudely impute to you ignorance of any particular RPGs - but from the way you describe your skill challenge experiences, I'd be surprised if you have very much familiarity with these other games.)

EDITED to respond to this:

I dunno why it gets singled out...maybe because the focus is more strongly on "the encounter" and "not the encounter" the way the mechanics work?
This is another area where I think there's a degree of confusion.

The encounter, in 4e, is what is called at The Forge the situation. The idea is that, in an encounter/situation, something is at stake which (i) the players care about, and (ii) they can attempt to engage with via their PCs.

The contrast would be with an exploration game, where much of the game is devoted not to encounters in this sense, but to the players learning about (in a sandbox) the gameworld, or (in a railroad) the GM's pre-determined story.

I 100% agree that 4e is not an exploration game - or, at least, not best suited to that. It does have strong exploration elements, though, like most RPGs, and there is a thorough discussion of exploration in chapters 1 and 8 of the PHB and chapter 2 of the DMG. And of the 4e GMs who post on this board, LostSoul is at least one who is running a sandbox game in 4e (although it emphasises exploration less, and gamism and players' emotional engagement with the setting more, than perhaps is the case for some sandboxes).

But the notion that a game that reduces emphasis on exploration has therefore downplayed roleplaying is, as far as I can tell, only plausible for those who aren't familiar with the huge range of situation-driven RPGs that have been in print since the mid-to-late 1990s, like those I mentioned above. When a skill challenge is being presented and resolved in the way I described above, the players aren't exploring a pre-given world or story. And they're not necessarily being 1st-person Thespians. But they are certainly roleplaying!
 
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Many of us have...and out of that have sprung many an Edition Wars thread.
I don't really agree with this.

And I should add - I don't count you as an edition warrer (am I editing my memory here?).

Anyway, to avoid the embarassment of talking about you any more in my reply, I'll talk about Lanefan instead (who might still be reading, but at least it's a bit more third person!).

Lanefan and I clearly have some different preferences in RPGs. He has no interest in 4e. He has explained on various occasions why not. I could probably get into his houseruled AD&D if I tried, but I'm certainly not knocking down his door to get a copy of it. For the reasons I've posted on many occasions, I find that 4e better delivers to me what I'm looking for from an RPG. Lanefan likes 9-point alignment. I don't really like alignment at all, but prefer 4e's approach to AD&D's. We each have our reasons.

But Lanefan and I have had lots of friendly and productive exchanges about GMing styles, playstyles, things we like and don't like. We've compared experiences running Night's Dark Terror. When we disagree, we tell each other why, and respectfully move on.

I don't see that as edition warring, because Lanefan has never tried to tell me I'm doing it wrong. And I can tell from his posts, and the duration of his campaign, and his obvious enthusiasm for and experience with the game, that he's not doing it wrong either.
 

And I should add - I don't count you as an edition warrer (am I editing my memory here?).

Can't really say. I mean, I defend my preferences and express what I feel about this game or that.

Despite my not considering myself one, I'm sure I've gotten hot enough that someone might have labeled me thus in their mind.
 

??? said:
The fact that you have to rebuild Hero to emulate D&D doesn't really negate my point. If you've rebuilt Hero to the point where it's simulating D&D, is it really all that different of a game? Of course, the base Hero system doesn't presume that. So, basically, you're playing D&D using a different system. At that point, why not just use D&D?
Note: Dannyalcatraz quoted this in a post above, original author uncredited.
So let's go the other way: if I rebuild D+D - which I and others jointly have - to make it the game I want, is it still D+D? Obviously my highly-biased answer is 'yes', but what do others think?

Anyway, to avoid the embarassment of talking about you any more in my reply, I'll talk about Lanefan instead (who might still be reading, but at least it's a bit more third person!).
::hand goes up::

I'm over here in the corner practising my hide-in-shadows.

Lanefan and I clearly have some different preferences in RPGs. He has no interest in 4e. He has explained on various occasions why not. I could probably get into his houseruled AD&D if I tried, but I'm certainly not knocking down his door to get a copy of it.
You don't need to...the basics are on our website and I can always send you the rest... ;)
For the reasons I've posted on many occasions, I find that 4e better delivers to me what I'm looking for from an RPG. Lanefan likes 9-point alignment. I don't really like alignment at all, but prefer 4e's approach to AD&D's. We each have our reasons.

But Lanefan and I have had lots of friendly and productive exchanges about GMing styles, playstyles, things we like and don't like. We've compared experiences running Night's Dark Terror. When we disagree, we tell each other why, and respectfully move on.

I don't see that as edition warring, because Lanefan has never tried to tell me I'm doing it wrong. And I can tell from his posts, and the duration of his campaign, and his obvious enthusiasm for and experience with the game, that he's not doing it wrong either.
There's a number of key posters here in ENWorld that I've come to realize just plain "get it", for lack of a better term; even though collectively we often disagree and sometimes fight like cats. And by "get it" I mean they both understand and care what the game's about on a much greater scale beyond the mechanics and the minutiae, and that comes through in what they post. [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is one such, which is why I mention it here.

What I'd really love to do is get together over a beer or three with those people and just talk shop all night.

Lanefan
 




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