The D&D Experience (or, All Roads lead to Rome)

[Gryph]

Is this really true of 3E?

I wondered when someone would point this out. I think the 4e designers took out the multi-class rules and prestige classes because they lose the archtypal nature of the class system in all other versions.

It is a question that everyone will have to answer for themselves.

 

[pawsplay]

As Lanefan said. No DM's role, and I do not agree it is D&D.

It may or may not be D&D, but solo adventures do have a DM. That task is distributed between the module writer and the player. Since the job of the DM is to adjudicate, and solo modules require adjudication, you are DMing yourself.

 

[Gryph]

I think that's one of the reasons 4e really works for my group. What you're calling the 'narrative burden' is viewed by us as an opportunity to be creative. We provide the narrative that describes/explains/positions the mechanics within the in-game fiction. We prefer to do this, mainly because we prefer the shi stuff we make up ourselves over that of some game designer who doesn't share our influences, sense of humor, and naked, adulterated brilliance !

For example, in the absence of a satisfying explanation of how the 4e paladin's marking/divine challenge worked, I added/substituted my own, which was clever, vulgar, and wholly inappropriate for publication in a game aimed, at least in part, at kids. And thus one of our campaign's great running jokes was born, not to mention the part of the characterization of an entire race and culture.

In this way, D&D 4e resembles the HERO system. Powers are described almost entirely in mechanical terms; the fiction is up to the players. In HERO, the rocket launcher used by an insurgent and the boomerang used by Captain Koala --which hits every target in a radius-- could have the exact same mechanical description. Their difference would reside entirely in how they were described, ie in the mechanics attached to the fiction at run-time. This is a plus in my book, not laziness or lack of concern. It's a smart and deliberate choice.

I like systems that leave room for the player's fiction. They're more flexible.

I basically agree with you on this, Mallus, so the rest of the post may seem needlessly nitpicky. If so I apologize in advance.

It seems to me there is an important difference in what you describe as your groups experience with 4e and how HERO system works. HERO system is often called a toolbox or toolkit game, I use the term myself, but I think of it as a big box of parts. Parts I use to model the various parts of the world we're going to play in. The books urge and offer lots of advice on how to start with a description of the power or effect in a fictional form and then use the parts to build it.

In other words I start with "the rebels have rocket launchers that cause a large explosion that can throw people through the air like a Micheal Bay movie", then I grab an RKA add an explosive aoe advantage and some extra knockbock to figure the cost.

I will freely admit that sometimes I approach it the other way and build the mechanics of the explosion first and then add the description. Largely, I go at it fiction first so I understand some of the posters difficulty in accepting the gamist design of 4e powers. I don't share their bias but I understand it.

 

[Gryph]

It may or may not be D&D, but solo adventures do have a DM. That task is distributed between the module writer and the player. Since the job of the DM is to adjudicate, and solo modules require adjudication, you are DMing yourself.

Interesting point, I need to think about that a second. It does neatly seperate solo module play from, say, using the random tables in the 1e DMG to solo play a dungeon crawl. An activity that always seemed to be very thin gruel at best.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It may or may not be D&D, but solo adventures do have a DM. That task is distributed between the module writer and the player. Since the job of the DM is to adjudicate, and solo modules require adjudication, you are DMing yourself.

Sorry, but that falls off the radar of my definition of D&D.

I don't mind if it is D&D to you, though.

 

[Nagol]

<snip>
In this way, D&D 4e resembles the HERO system. Powers are described almost entirely in mechanical terms; the fiction is up to the players. In HERO, the rocket launcher used by an insurgent and the boomerang used by Captain Koala --which hits every target in a radius-- could have the exact same mechanical description. Their difference would reside entirely in how they were described, ie in the mechanics attached to the fiction at run-time. This is a plus in my book, not laziness or lack of concern. It's a smart and deliberate choice.

I like systems that leave room for the player's fiction. They're more flexible.

The powers are defined in appearance and attached to the fiction (special effect in Hero terms) at design time (power/character design) by and large. There are a few routes to add the special effect during play, there is generally a charge for that feature since adjusting special effect is advantageous as you can take advantage of circumstances and limit the amount others can take advantage of yours.

 

[Gryph]

<snip>
The rules for any magical system are modelling a fantasy, and therefore can be devised however you like. The rules for modelling real-world physical systems should model real-world physical systems at least to some playable degree. Limitations on how many times you can jump, or swing a sword, are arbitrary in ways that limitations on magic (which brings no real world expectations) are not.
RC

This right here is as concise a summation as I have ever seen. I couldn't XP you again but this is really good.

 

[Raven Crowking]

This right here is as concise a summation as I have ever seen. I couldn't XP you again but this is really good.

Thank you. As I've often demonstrated, "concise" is not usually my forté.



RC

 

[Gryph]

<snip>
D&D, as far as people have agreed with is:

A class based system
A system which presumes the presence of a DM (although it doesn't necessarily require it as evinced by solo modules.)

I would add that D&D is not a generic system. The basic presumption of the game is that you will be playing a certain kind of game (heroic - in the sense that you start weak and gain power in a sort of Cambellian Hero's Journey) in a certain genre (fantasy).

So, if we go with those three elements: class based, with a DM to adjudicate, and non-generic fantasy based, that excludes most other activities.

I think Lan-"does that make 4e a new subdivision in downtown Rome"-efan neatly defined another data point, at least by implication. It doesn't have to say Dungeons & Dragons on the cover for a game to share the D&D soul.

 

[Gryph]

Thank you. As I've often demonstrated, "concise" is not usually my forté.



RC

I won't use my Blind Squirrel Summoning I then .