The Dark Eight!

[The Serge]

Incidently mate did you know that just before the problems at TSR forced Gary out he was about to rework all the entities of the Outer Planes (Orcus, Asmodeus etc.)!? Its annoying to think of it now; but back then Gary was on the verge of writing his own version of the Book of Vile Darkness it seems...

Can you just imagine if Gary had been able to follow through with his plans; what a book that would have been...

It would have been interesting to see, I'll warrent you that.

But for me, even since 1ed, I always felt that at least two or so Arch-Devils and Demon Princes should have been Greater gods. I simply uped the ante to Overpower with the advent of 2ed.

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion philosophically (though I think I understand what you mean)

Clarify, please.

I would theorise that Asmodeus is almost certainly the Avatar of a more powerful being.

In fact regarding Asmodeus (49 HD/DR 8 Lesser God), I would currently decree that he is the Avatar of Lucifer (98 HD/ DR 18 Greater God); who in turn is the Avatar of Ahriman (196 HD/DR 28 Overgod).

While I find this to be a fascinating idea, are you suggesting that Ahriman goes through all this trouble to remain hidden from something? And, is this based off the old Dragon magazine that stats Lucifer (DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT ISSUE THIS IS AND WHERE THE HECK I CAN FIND IT???!!!!!)

And, if you go with this idea, is there something similar on the Demonic side? You already know that I cap the Demon Princes out at no more than Intermediate power (although I'd be willing to see a few up to Greater). Would you through in Miltonesque or Dantesque entities into the Greater power realm?

I like to think I explain my reasoning well..?

Most certainly. But I also think that what you're suggesting does not appear to challenge "old school/old guard" concepts, and does not seem to promote a dualistic, overarching, multiplanar cosmology.

I think I've explained my position well enough... I just think that it seems to threaten too many established and official perspectives from the various D&D incarnations.

If you have posted it on the WotC boards before (?) I am sure I have already read it.

It's never been posted in its entirety because it's way too long. But, I have posted the gist of it.

Sure - you won't be disappointed mate! Trust me!

In fact I just checked ebay and someone is selling the COMPLETE SET of Gord the Rogue novels!

Are you an experienced ebayer Serge mate? If not I can give you a few tips - trust me, you want to win this auction!!!

I'll email you with all the details.

Thanks! I emailed you about fifteen minutes ago.

Isn't Furcas in Legions of Hell?

Yes, but the Furcas in Legions of Hell is not the Dark Eight Furcas. The Furcus in LoH is actually based more upon the occultic, "Catholic" mythology of a Devil of the same name. While the Dark Eight Furcas, except for the name, is entirely "fictional." Incidently, the Dark Eight Furcas was and has always been a Pit Fiend since the 1ed (he's listed in the MM2 and in the Dragon mag, #75. LoH is more "accurate" as far as adhering to classical demological stuff than D&D (like noting, among other things, that Belial and Baalzebub are fallen angels, and including Leviathan and Lilith as Lords of the Nine). LoH is in the position to do so because they are not as corporate (or as well known) as WotC and D&D and don't have to worry about the backlash (although WotC may be willing to accept some backlash with the impending Book of Vile Darkness, which will undoubtedly be perceived in the wrong way by both immature gamers and the general public).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi the Serge mate!

It would have been interesting to see, I'll warrent you that.

True.

But for me, even since 1ed, I always felt that at least two or so Arch-Devils and Demon Princes should have been Greater gods. I simply uped the ante to Overpower with the advent of 2ed.

Theres nothing to say there are not Greater Power (or above) Demons and Devils. Simply that such beings are generally never involved in the mundane politicking of the Outer Planes.

There can be a number of reasons for this:

Imprisoned: Over the eons cosmic threats must have been either destroyed or imprisoned - otherwise the multiverse wouldn't exist as it does now.
eg. Tharizdun.

Checked: The actions of certain beings are often opposed by counterparts.
eg. Ahrimans actions are 'checked' by his brother Ormazd.

Uninterested: Such cosmic beings are uninterested in the day to day machinations of planar politicking. Either prefering to ignore them or leave such mundane tasks to underlings or avatars. In the same way that Gods don't interfere with the mortal realm; Ubergods generally don't interfere with the Divine Realm.
eg. Azathoth.

Alter Ego: Many such beings have divine alter egos and as such are actually well known gods.
eg. Nerull is really the Daemon Ruler Infestix!

Interlopers: Planar interlopers may be powerful enough to establish their own kingdoms but often impeded from further exploits by the true natives.
eg. Ravana (Demon King of Rakshasas) is a Greater God of the Abyss though not a Tanar'ri.

Infinite: The Planes are infinite. Think about this in universal terms. On a layer of the Abyss controlled by Demogorgon there may be a hundred other powers who he is unaware of because they exist so far away. Remember you can't teleport sight unseen (without risk) so even if a Demon can teleport safely 5 miles (horizon) every round thats only 2.5 billion miles every 1000 years. That wouldn't even put them out of our Solar System - nevermind out of the galaxy - nevermind out of our supercluster. So there could be outerplanar pockets where other deities or demons are in control.
eg. In our campaign Graz'zt rules the Abyss, but so does Mabelode (the Moorcockian 'King of Swords') and so do the Chaos Gods of Warhammer (Khorne; Slaanesh; Nurgle; Tzeentch etc.)

So you have a situation whereby:

- Nerull rules the Daemons. (Alter Ego)
- Lucifer ruled Hell but was locked up by the Arch-devils. (Imprisonment)
- Ojukalazogadit* (most powerful demon of the Abyss?) doesn't care about day to day politicking. (uninterested)
- Ahrimans activities are stymied by his brother. (checked)
- Ravana is more powerful than individual Tanar'ri Princes but would be opposed by a unified Tanar'ri front should he attempt to conquer the Abyss. Obviously Tanar'ri are racists. (interloper)

*See the Gord the Rogue novels!

Clarify, please.

Well the original source identifies Demogorgon/Asmodeus as Lesser Powers.

Monte Cook may argue that the original Monster Manual never said they were gods - but it never said they weren't either!

So if you say they are all too weak then what can you possibly be basing this conjecture upon!?

While I find this to be a fascinating idea, are you suggesting that Ahriman goes through all this trouble to remain hidden from something?

The thing to remember about evil cosmic powerhouses like Ahriman is that they are either directly opposed or face opposition should they act beyond their sphere of influence.

Thats why we have the current cosmic status quo.

And, is this based off the old Dragon magazine that stats Lucifer

Not necssarily, but I have read that article (though I don't own it). It was in a 'Best of Dragon Magazine' that I saw it.

Lucifer was chained in Hell by the other Arch-Devils. I do remember he had 333hp.

(DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT ISSUE THIS IS AND WHERE THE HECK I CAN FIND IT???!!!!!)

Scott Greene (aka Graz'zt on these boards) is the person to see about this - his Dragon magazine collection is very extensive.

Try asking here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=27

And, if you go with this idea, is there something similar on the Demonic side? You already know that I cap the Demon Princes out at no more than Intermediate power (although I'd be willing to see a few up to Greater). Would you through in Miltonesque or Dantesque entities into the Greater power realm?

I certainly think there could be Intermediate Power Demon Princes and Arch-Devils - but you would have to explain the reasoning behind their increase in power.

eg. In our campaign Graz'zt is an Intermediate Power because he conquered the Abyss defeating all his rivals to that claim.

Asmodeus is still a Lesser Power, since (although he is the most powerful Arch-Duke) his position is contested by Mephisto and Baalzebul.

Nerull-Infestix is a Greater Power, as well as ruling the Daemons he is also bolstered by extensive worship on the Prime Material Plane.

Most certainly. But I also think that what you're suggesting does not appear to challenge "old school/old guard" concepts, and does not seem to promote a dualistic, overarching, multiplanar cosmology.

On the contrary I advocate something on an even grander scale!

However, I can find all the examples I need from real world mythology and occult references - so I don't need to boost Asmodeus unnecessarily.

I think I've explained my position well enough... I just think that it seems to threaten too many established and official perspectives from the various D&D incarnations.

I don't see a dualistic system explaining everything.

Certainly Ahriman is not the greatest force of evil in the multiverse - that is clear.

It's never been posted in its entirety because it's way too long. But, I have posted the gist of it.

I imagine I have read the gist of it then.

Thanks! I emailed you about fifteen minutes ago.

Just replied!

Yes, but the Furcas in Legions of Hell is not the Dark Eight Furcas. The Furcus in LoH is actually based more upon the occultic, "Catholic" mythology of a Devil of the same name. While the Dark Eight Furcas, except for the name, is entirely "fictional." Incidently, the Dark Eight Furcas was and has always been a Pit Fiend since the 1ed (he's listed in the MM2 and in the Dragon mag, #75. LoH is more "accurate" as far as adhering to classical demological stuff than D&D (like noting, among other things, that Belial and Baalzebub are fallen angels, and including Leviathan and Lilith as Lords of the Nine). LoH is in the position to do so because they are not as corporate (or as well known) as WotC and D&D and don't have to worry about the backlash (although WotC may be willing to accept some backlash with the impending Book of Vile Darkness, which will undoubtedly be perceived in the wrong way by both immature gamers and the general public).

Still it should be an interesting read for us!

 

[The Serge]

Theres nothing to say there are not Greater Power (or above) Demons and Devils. Simply that such beings are generally never involved in the mundane politicking of the Outer Planes.

This entire line of reasoning is fascinating and not one with which I would argue. However, the problem here (for me) is that many of these entities have never really been used to any great amount in an official (or unofficial printed) degree. Given my interest in the material, I would have eaten this stuff up if it were more available.

Additionally, even without hearing about Lucifer and other Overlords of Hell prior to Asmodeus, I always thought that Asmodeus was a "cover." Anyone familiar with popular occult and demonology knows that Asmodeus was a minor Demon associated with the building of the Temple in Jerusalem and that he was bound to service by King Solomon, and that he eventually became in charge of Hell's casinos in Catholic myth. But, I've always thought that for D&D, the name was nothing more than that (which gets back to why there are two Furcas'). I always saw Asmodeus as something greater (which Chris Pramas, being employed with WotC and writing) beat me to the punch and suggested that he was Ahriman first.

While I see the validity of what you and earlier contributors have created, I also never really saw Asmodeus as having to compete with anyone. Sure, he gives them (Mephisto, Baalzebub, et. al) the impression that they can defeat and overthrow him, but in truth they cannot because they are no where near strong enough. I've heard the suggestion that this position I've taken ruin the idea that Asmodeus is being challenged... Well, not really. If Asmodeus is something far greater and he's, forwhaterever reason, in hiding, what better way than to distract potential foes and nosey entities than by giving the impression of constantly having to watch one's back?

Simply put, I always saw Asmodeus as the very first entity dedicated to Law and Evil and he's been in that position since the dawn of Creation. Through some conflict well before the creation of most gods, Asmodeus was cast down and thought destroyed when in fact he became trapped in Hell where he created all Devils... Was he originally called Lucifer or Ahriman or The Satan? No one knows (at least that would have been my story), but he is now called Asmodeus in an attempt to slowly gather his power. He uses the politics of Hell (and to a lesser extent, the entire Cosmos) as a smokescreen.

Clearly, this is not what Gygax and earlier writers had in mind... But, I think it's still a valid possibility that would account for the power level I associate with Asmodeus.

Still, I have a better understanding of what you've been saying. My ideas were created within a framework unfamiliar with earlier, official renditions. And, admittedly, even when I became familiar with the "official line" (like when I bought the original Manual of the Planes and found Asmodeus to be nothing greater than a lesser god) I ignored it. Alas! The problem with having an original idea!

Well the original source identifies Demogorgon/Asmodeus as Lesser Powers.

Monte Cook may argue that the original Monster Manual never said they were gods - but it never said they weren't either!

Agree with the latter. Obviously, I don't agree with the former.

A lot of things changed as new people offered new ideas. Dragons grew more powerful, some of the Monsters seemed to become more related to their "real world" counterparts, and so on. I don't think that just because the earlier writers, even Mr. Gygax, created or wrote something that it means it's automatically gospel. Is it something to consider in the hopes of having a sense of continuity within the game system? Certainly. But that does not mean that the "original source material" is better than later, slightly different ideas.

Like many people, I was somewhat confused when the Concordant Opposition disappeared and was replaced by this place called the Outlands and the city of Sigil. And who was the chick with the spikes coming out of her head? But, after reading it, I found that I liked this a lot more than what I was originally familiar with (not that I agreed with it, mind you. I saw Sigil as the hiding place to the ultimate artifact that would grant whomever wielded it complete control over all Creation and I saw the Lady of Pain as the guardian for this artifact. Never saw her as a Tanar'ri and all this other stuff). Do I mean to imply that newer is better? Certainly not. I was one of many a little ticked with the disappearance of Devils and Demons and the appearance of Baatezu and Tanar'ri, something I think weakened the necessary occult and supernatural feel of the game. I didn't (and still don't) care for some of the new Lords of the Nine (Fierana? Please.)

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not really interested in the established word so much as I'm interested in really great possibilities for the greatest of all adventures: The Planes of Existance, where faith, meaning, being can be explored to the fullest.

(The Serge steps down from his soap box).

So if you say they are all too weak then what can you possibly be basing this conjecture upon!?

I think the stuff above answers this question. My ideas are based upon how I perceive Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Neutrality within a designed framework.

My thought has always been that the Demon Princes (or Demon Monarch), the Lords of the Nine, the Oinoloth/daemon, were essentially the gods of the various evil spirits they controlled. As a result, these beings should be more powerful.

Furthermore, I've always seen such beings as the epitome of a "universal" concept, something D&D is full of. I see the gods as stewards of some of these concepts usually limited to a specific world. But, Asmodeus is the pinnacle of Lawful Evil. He also controls an entire Plane that is the physical manifestation of Lawful Evil. I never saw a Lesser god as having the ability to do such a thing. I won't get into this in detail due to time, but that's a part of my argument that gets into why I think by and large, many of the Outer Planar Cosmic entities need a boast. (I also think there needs to be good versions of these ideas as well).

The thing to remember about evil cosmic powerhouses like Ahriman is that they are either directly opposed or face opposition should they act beyond their sphere of influence.

Thats why we have the current cosmic status quo.

Absolutely. I've always agreed with this. In fact, it's the reason why my version of Asmodeus (the one that should be official ) is trapped in Hell and can only do so much from the bottom of the Pit (again, these were ideas I was working with before Pramas' A Guide to Hell, which, unlike many other people I half-way liked). It's why I see there as being many Intermediate god-level Demon Princes rather than just a few... this keeps them fighting against each other.

Scott Greene (aka Graz'zt on these boards) is the person to see about this - his Dragon magazine collection is very extensive.

Thanks!

I certainly think there could be Intermediate Power Demon Princes and Arch-Devils - but you would have to explain the reasoning behind their increase in power.

eg. In our campaign Graz'zt is an Intermediate Power because he conquered the Abyss defeating all his rivals to that claim.

Asmodeus is still a Lesser Power, since (although he is the most powerful Arch-Duke) his position is contested by Mephisto and Baalzebul.

Nerull-Infestix is a Greater Power, as well as ruling the Daemons he is also bolstered by extensive worship on the Prime Material Plane.

Well, I think what I described earlier is an example of a boost in power. Don't know that I'd use the Nerull thing, although I find it fascinating...

As for using real world myth. Well, again, I think my ideas do so as well. I've never seen the Overlord of Hell we know as "Asmodeus" as the "Asmodeus" of of Jewish/Hebrew myth, or Catholic myth. I see the Overlord of Hell as using the name as a smokescreen while he slowly works towards something of Cosmic proportions. The politics and conflicts of Hell are past-times to amuse him until his plans reach fruition. I think there is even some "official" material to support this in Dragon 76 where it talks about the use of names and the like.

Anyway, I will see if Scott Greene can help me out.

Thanks!

Anyway, I love these conversations. Glad these boards are here for that purpose alone.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again the Serge mate!

This entire line of reasoning is fascinating and not one with which I would argue.

However, the problem here (for me) is that many of these entities have never really been used to any great amount in an official (or unofficial printed) degree. Given my interest in the material, I would have eaten this stuff up if it were more available.

...well remember, I mentioned the plans Gary Gygax was never able to fulfill.

Additionally, even without hearing about Lucifer and other Overlords of Hell prior to Asmodeus, I always thought that Asmodeus was a "cover." Anyone familiar with popular occult and demonology knows that Asmodeus was a minor Demon associated with the building of the Temple in Jerusalem and that he was bound to service by King Solomon, and that he eventually became in charge of Hell's casinos in Catholic myth.

But, I've always thought that for D&D, the name was nothing more than that (which gets back to why there are two Furcas'). I always saw Asmodeus as something greater (which Chris Pramas, being employed with WotC and writing) beat me to the punch and suggested that he was Ahriman first.

Well the name Asmodeus was itself derived from the Persian Aeshma Deva - which was actually an evil spirit created by the Persian Over-deity Ahriman!

While I see the validity of what you and earlier contributors have created, I also never really saw Asmodeus as having to compete with anyone. Sure, he gives them (Mephisto, Baalzebub, et. al) the impression that they can defeat and overthrow him, but in truth they cannot because they are no where near strong enough. I've heard the suggestion that this position I've taken ruin the idea that Asmodeus is being challenged... Well, not really. If Asmodeus is something far greater and he's, for whaterever reason, in hiding, what better way than to distract potential foes and nosey entities than by giving the impression of constantly having to watch one's back?

The problem with this is that Asmodeus was statted in 1st Ed. - so unless you want to say Gary was lying to us you have to fit your reasoning around this fact (as I have).

Simply put, I always saw Asmodeus as the very first entity dedicated to Law and Evil and he's been in that position since the dawn of Creation.

Well Ahriman may be the personification of Lawful Evil but that means hes playing second fiddle to Evil itself, as I advocate.

Through some conflict well before the creation of most gods, Asmodeus was cast down and thought destroyed when in fact he became trapped in Hell where he created all Devils... Was he originally called Lucifer or Ahriman or The Satan? No one knows (at least that would have been my story), but he is now called Asmodeus in an attempt to slowly gather his power. He uses the politics of Hell (and to a lesser extent, the entire Cosmos) as a smokescreen.

Clearly, this is not what Gygax and earlier writers had in mind... But, I think it's still a valid possibility that would account for the power level I associate with Asmodeus.

I don't see that being the Asmodeus we know and love though! Which is why I am happy with the Ahriman distinction which keeps 'Asmodeus' in his place.

Still, I have a better understanding of what you've been saying. My ideas were created within a framework unfamiliar with earlier, official renditions. And, admittedly, even when I became familiar with the "official line" (like when I bought the original Manual of the Planes and found Asmodeus to be nothing greater than a lesser god) I ignored it. Alas! The problem with having an original idea!

Tut tut tut!

Agree with the latter. Obviously, I don't agree with the former.

Everyones entitled to their own opinion.

A lot of things changed as new people offered new ideas. Dragons grew more powerful, some of the Monsters seemed to become more related to their "real world" counterparts, and so on. I don't think that just because the earlier writers, even Mr. Gygax, created or wrote something that it means it's automatically gospel.

But the points you mentioned were merely mechanical changes not philosophical upheavals!

If Gary Gygax lays down a fundamental philosophy (on something he created no less) then anyone looking to change that better have concrete reasoning.

Is it something to consider in the hopes of having a sense of continuity within the game system? Certainly. But that does not mean that the "original source material" is better than later, slightly different ideas.

Every campaign is entitled to do things their own way.

Like many people, I was somewhat confused when the Concordant Opposition disappeared and was replaced by this place called the Outlands and the city of Sigil.

But that was only a name change.

And who was the chick with the spikes coming out of her head?

I always envisioned she was something to do with Fate.

But, after reading it, I found that I liked this a lot more than what I was originally familiar with (not that I agreed with it, mind you. I saw Sigil as the hiding place to the ultimate artifact that would grant whomever wielded it complete control over all Creation and I saw the Lady of Pain as the guardian for this artifact. Never saw her as a Tanar'ri and all this other stuff).

There is no evidence to indicate the Lady of Pain has substantial power outside Sigil (as far as I know).

I would suggest she is an Avatar of the Entity Fate.

Do I mean to imply that newer is better? Certainly not. I was one of many a little ticked with the disappearance of Devils and Demons and the appearance of Baatezu and Tanar'ri,

Another mere name change.

something I think weakened the necessary occult and supernatural feel of the game.

I agree.

I didn't (and still don't) care for some of the new Lords of the Nine (Fierana? Please.)

No harm in evolving things along.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm not really interested in the established word so much as I'm interested in really great possibilities for the greatest of all adventures: The Planes of Existance, where faith, meaning, being can be explored to the fullest.

(The Serge steps down from his soap box).

I agree with this, just not with your arbitrary decision to augment Asmodeus and Demogorgon "just because..."

I think the stuff above answers this question. My ideas are based upon how I perceive Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Neutrality within a designed framework.

Then how can you see an overarching cosmology with Ahriman (and Jazirian?) at the top?

My thought has always been that the Demon Princes (or Demon Monarch), the Lords of the Nine, the Oinoloth/daemon, were essentially the gods of the various evil spirits they controlled.

Evil gods ARE evil spirits. (If you wanted to make a distinction they are evil spirits with worshippers)

As a result, these beings should be more powerful.

Why though?

Furthermore, I've always seen such beings as the epitome of a "universal" concept, something D&D is full of. I see the gods as stewards of some of these concepts usually limited to a specific world. But, Asmodeus is the pinnacle of Lawful Evil.

Well Ahriman perhaps...

He also controls an entire Plane that is the physical manifestation of Lawful Evil.

Well he rules the Devils.

I never saw a Lesser god as having the ability to do such a thing.

Maybe a Lesser God back by an organisation of billions of evil spirits..?

I won't get into this in detail due to time, but that's a part of my argument that gets into why I think by and large, many of the Outer Planar Cosmic entities need a boast. (I also think there needs to be good versions of these ideas as well).

I already have the 'Good' hierarchy covered.

Absolutely. I've always agreed with this. In fact, it's the reason why my version of Asmodeus (the one that should be official ) is trapped in Hell and can only do so much from the bottom of the Pit (again, these were ideas I was working with before Pramas' A Guide to Hell, which, unlike many other people I half-way liked). It's why I see there as being many Intermediate god-level Demon Princes rather than just a few... this keeps them fighting against each other.

Onlly the six demon monarchs genuinely contest with each other - thats why they are the self styled Kings and Queens.

Well, I think what I described earlier is an example of a boost in power. Don't know that I'd use the Nerull thing, although I find it fascinating...

You will love the fights in the Gord the Rogue novels!

Anyway, I will see if Scott Greene can help me out.

I'm sure he will!

Thanks!

No problem mate.

Anyway, I love these conversations. Glad these boards are here for that purpose alone.

 

[The Serge]

Hello again the Serge mate!

UK... Why is it you and and I cannot have simple, short comments?

Oh, well, why am I complaining. This is fun!

Back into the breach...

The problem with this is that Asmodeus was statted in 1st Ed. - so unless you want to say Gary was lying to us you have to fit your reasoning around this fact (as I have).

No, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What I am contending is that there may be "more" out there beyond what Gygax wrote for the game. Since we never saw what he planned, and since D&D is a shared world in which concepts and ideas have changed over time, I don't see his ideas as having precedence now. In 1ed, certainly but, for good or ill, when he was ousted and other minds became involved, his "monopoly" (probably too strong and perhaps unfair a word, but I can't think of a better one right now) ended.

And I think I am using the original framework as a springboard. Since his creation, D&D has grown from his ideas. There are some ideas in Planescape that I think were/are better than the ideas I've read from 1ed, which likewise used the 1ed material as a springboard.

Well Ahriman may be the personification of Lawful Evil but that means hes playing second fiddle to Evil itself, as I advocate.

Well, I personally have never much fancied the idea of an entity of Ultimate Evil. By default, such a being would have to be Neutral Evil, and that gives one of the alignments a clear advantage...

I don't see that being the Asmodeus we know and love though! Which is why I am happy with the Ahriman distinction which keeps 'Asmodeus' in his place.

And that's one of my points. I don't see why that must be "the Asmodeus we know and love..." I think that there was enough room in 1ed to intensify his mytique (along with that of other entities) to make them far more threatening within the framework that they are the manifestations of certain ideals.

If a person wants to slap the name "Ahriman" as the true incarnation of Asmodeus, I'm fine with that as long as it's recognized that such a being is the personification of Lawful evil.

But the points you mentioned were merely mechanical changes not philosophical upheavals!

Placing a city in which Gods cannot enter, being said to be the most powerful entities around, is not a philosophical upheaval?

If Gary Gygax lays down a fundamental philosophy (on something he created no less) then anyone looking to change that better have concrete reasoning.

I think I deal with this above. All respect due to Mr. Gygax, but he's sort of in the same boat as Bob Kane and Bill Finger, the creators of Batman. There are many things that they did for characters in the Batman mythos that were eliminated, thrown out, reworked, and revitalized. Heck, even the spirit of the Batman has changed time and again, sometimes for the better, other times for worse. So long as they are recognized for their creation and afforded the proper financial and conceptual recompense, I see no problem with something like that developing and changing as new creators/designers come along.

As for concrete reasons... I think that's the problem. I see your position as a concrete reason to the same degree I see Monte Cook's to the same degree I perceive mine. They just don't gel because they are promoting different things, some of which are incompatible.

But that was only a name change.

No, it did more than change the name. It changed the entire idea that there are spiritual monsters out there that want to see you damned and burning (metaphorically and really). Planescape repeatedly stressed that the Tanar'ri and Baatezu weren't "demons and devils," that they weren't spirits, that they were the souls of the dead, and so on. They did their best to make them just another "mundane" race like Elves.

There is no evidence to indicate the Lady of Pain has substantial power outside Sigil (as far as I know).

I would suggest she is an Avatar of the Entity Fate.

According to Monte Cook, the Planescape design staff perceived her as an overpower. If she was, she may have been limited to just the Outlands and Sigil in the same manner FR's Ao is limited to Toril.

I have no problem with the Fate idea (although it doesn't quite go with my cosmology in my campaign) being official. Where in 1ed was Fate mentioned?

I agree with this, just not with your arbitrary decision to augment Asmodeus and Demogorgon "just because..."

Oh, how you wound me! It's not arbitrary and it's not just because. It is different and a step beyond the 1ed ideas. And they're not the only ones, I would raise. I would raise Primus, the Slaadi Lords, and I would add equivalent beings in the Seven Heavens, Elysium, and so on. It would a whole-sale adjustment based upon the idea that these beings are Archetypes of universal concepts/truths. The do not replace the gods, but compliment them in that they exist beyond the limited Prime Material Planes and often do not require worship to survive/exist. There would be ranks above some of these as well.

Then how can you see an overarching cosmology with Ahriman (and Jazirian?) at the top?

?

I don't. Never did. That's not the impression I intended on giving. I do see Law as having ONE supreme representative for each moral alignment. You'd have Primus for LN, Asmodeus /Ahriman for LE, and Ahura Mazda (The Supreme Virtue in my cosmology) for LG. They would be mirrored by similar, more plentiful beings of for Chaos and Neutrality. When I say that Asmodeus is the Prime Evil, I am saying that he promotes an intellectual center and rationalizes Evil, rather than just committing acts for the sake of committing them (like CE) or because he wants something (NE). Similar concepts would follow. This does not mean that he's the Lord of Evil, though.

Evil gods ARE evil spirits. (If you wanted to make a distinction they are evil spirits with worshippers)

I was referring to the "normal" Devils and Demons.

Why though?

Because they are the archetypes, the manifestations of the alignments they represent.

(Are we going in circles yet? )

I already have the 'Good' hierarchy covered.

Mind sharing? I have ideas I may post in the future.

Later!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi the Serge mate!

UK... Why is it you and I cannot have simple, short comments?

Oh, well, why am I complaining. This is fun!

Back into the breach...

No, I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. What I am contending is that there may be "more" out there beyond what Gygax wrote for the game.

I agree and I am sure so would Gary.

But what you were saying is that the original treatment of the subject was wrong and *this* is how it should be done.

Nothing wrong with how someone details their own campaign of course; but when you want others to take your ideas over someone elses (whether they are by Gary Gygax or not) not only do you have to show why your ideas work - but you also have to show why the prior philosophy/rules, don't work...and since they do work what you advocate is merely optional at best as far as I can see.

Since we never saw what he planned, and since D&D is a shared world in which concepts and ideas have changed over time, I don't see his ideas as having precedence now.

Again I agree; but if someone wants to change philosophical fundamentals I want to understand why they are right and the previous ideas are wrong!?

Something that can easily be pointed out with regards 2nd Ed's treatment of the matter.

In 1ed, certainly but, for good or ill, when he was ousted and other minds became involved, his "monopoly" (probably too strong and perhaps unfair a word, but I can't think of a better one right now) ended.

Obviously it was for 'ill' since 2nd Ed. was a monumental balls up for the most part*; hamstrung by ludicrous religious and socialogical constraints.

*Albeit with a few gems in there.

And I think I am using the original framework as a springboard. Since his creation, D&D has grown from his ideas. There are some ideas in Planescape that I think were/are better than the ideas I've read from 1ed, which likewise used the 1ed material as a springboard.

One of the problems I had with Planescape was the improper reasoning behind why such beings as the Demon Princes were not 'Powers'.

Well, I personally have never much fancied the idea of an entity of Ultimate Evil. By default, such a being would have to be Neutral Evil, and that gives one of the alignments a clear advantage...

Why couldn't it just be of 'Evil' alignment?

And that's one of my points. I don't see why that must be "the Asmodeus we know and love..." I think that there was enough room in 1ed to intensify his mytique (along with that of other entities) to make them far more threatening within the framework that they are the manifestations of certain ideals.

To me this is like taking the original Batman idea and giving him super-powers.

If a person wants to slap the name "Ahriman" as the true incarnation of Asmodeus, I'm fine with that as long as it's recognized that such a being is the personification of Lawful evil.

I'm just not convinced the reverse 'just slapping Overpower status on Asmodeus' is justified.

Placing a city in which Gods cannot enter, being said to be the most powerful entities around, is not a philosophical upheaval?

In the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes the centre of Concordant Opposition checked even Divine Power from functioning.

I think I deal with this above. All respect due to Mr. Gygax, but he's sort of in the same boat as Bob Kane and Bill Finger, the creators of Batman. There are many things that they did for characters in the Batman mythos that were eliminated, thrown out, reworked, and revitalized. Heck, even the spirit of the Batman has changed time and again, sometimes for the better, other times for worse. So long as they are recognized for their creation and afforded the proper financial and conceptual recompense, I see no problem with something like that developing and changing as new creators/designers come along.

An interesting analogy.

Juxtaposed to our discussion and the treatment of the Demon Princes during the 2nd Ed. 'Dark Ages' was akin to Batman's 'camp' 60s television show. Hopefully the Book of Vile Darkness will be their 'Dark Knight' renaissance?

While Asmodeus is a mythological concept - his introduction to D&D by Gary Gygax is akin to Stan Lee 'creating' the mighty Thor. He might evolve and change over time but his origins remain the same.

Therefore if you say that Asmodeus is really an Overpower personification of Lawful Evil I want to know who was the 199hp; ruby rod carrying Arch-devil ruler of the Hells we are familiar with!?

As for concrete reasons... I think that's the problem. I see your position as a concrete reason to the same degree I see Monte Cook's to the same degree I perceive mine. They just don't gel because they are promoting different things, some of which are incompatible.

True. However, I choose to abide by the origins of the concept.

No, it did more than change the name. It changed the entire idea that there are spiritual monsters out there that want to see you damned and burning (metaphorically and really). Planescape repeatedly stressed that the Tanar'ri and Baatezu weren't "demons and devils," that they weren't spirits, that they were the souls of the dead, and so on. They did their best to make them just another "mundane" race like Elves.

Yes they went further than merely changing the names, but the name changes in and of themselves were not entirely problematic (thats obvious since they have retained them for 3rd Ed.)

According to Monte Cook, the Planescape design staff perceived her as an overpower. If she was, she may have been limited to just the Outlands and Sigil in the same manner FR's Ao is limited to Toril.

Did it ever state this in any official material? I don't like loose ends.

I have no problem with the Fate idea (although it doesn't quite go with my cosmology in my campaign) being official. Where in 1ed was Fate mentioned?

She wasn't. Or at least not exactly. Won't be long until you read the Gord the Rogue novels now!

Oh, how you wound me!

It's not arbitrary and it's not just because. It is different and a step beyond the 1ed ideas. And they're not the only ones, I would raise. I would raise Primus, the Slaadi Lords, and I would add equivalent beings in the Seven Heavens, Elysium, and so on. It would a whole-sale adjustment based upon the idea that these beings are Archetypes of universal concepts/truths. The do not replace the gods, but compliment them in that they exist beyond the limited Prime Material Planes and often do not require worship to survive/exist. There would be ranks above some of these as well.

I think when you read the Gord the Rogue novels you will gain an insight into the character of such beings that sets them apart from faceless personifications.

I don't. Never did. That's not the impression I intended on giving. I do see Law as having ONE supreme representative for each moral alignment. You'd have Primus for LN, Asmodeus /Ahriman for LE, and Ahura Mazda (The Supreme Virtue in my cosmology) for LG. They would be mirrored by similar, more plentiful beings of for Chaos and Neutrality. When I say that Asmodeus is the Prime Evil, I am saying that he promotes an intellectual center and rationalizes Evil, rather than just committing acts for the sake of committing them (like CE) or because he wants something (NE). Similar concepts would follow. This does not mean that he's the Lord of Evil, though.

I agree - this is what I describe myself as Overgods (In fact I have every planar Overgod 'bagged and tagged' in the Immortals Handbook).

But this in itself implicates more powerful entities.

Because they are the archetypes, the manifestations of the alignments they represent.

(Are we going in circles yet?)

But they were never archetypes before. They were individuals. That doesn't mean such archetypes don't exist - just that its not them!

Mind sharing? I have ideas I may post in the future.

Elohim (Solars) = Hero-deities
Malakim = Demigods
Kyriotates = Lesser Gods
Ophanim = Inter Gods
Cherubim = Greater Gods
Seraphim = Elder Gods

There are also 6 lines beyond this - but I will save that for the Immortals Handbook.

 

[The Serge]

Hi the Serge mate!

Hey, UK.

But what you were saying is that the original treatment of the subject was wrong and *this* is how it should be done.

Nothing wrong with how someone details their own campaign of course; but when you want others to take your ideas over someone elses (whether they are by Gary Gygax or not) not only do you have to show why your ideas work - but you also have to show why the prior philosophy/rules, don't work...and since they do work what you advocate is merely optional at best as far as I can see.

Well, I think on these boards, it's easy for an "immobile" attitude to appear. By no means to I think my ideas are the only ones, although I do favor them (they are mine after all). And, I'm of a writing school in which my ideas tend to come across as "gospel" despite my best intentions.

Now, I happen to have a fully detailed rational for my cosmology. I've never bothered to include it on any board because, quite frankly, I felt I was being a bit presumptuous (not to mention the fact that I'm a little concerned about my ideas popping up in someone's book). I have always stated that my ideas were just that, my ideas. I am cognizant that they may not work for everybody and that they will not often fit in with the official line. But, I think that's one of the reasons these boards are around, to have our ideas challenged and to in turn challenge other ideas.

At any rate, I don't think that what Gygax and others created don't work. They work perfectly fine for a lot of people because what he and other created is in line with what many people want to see. You have the additional benefit of being familiar with ideas and concepts not central to 1ed by having read additional material from Gygax.

That said, I've always thought, given what I knew, that there was more to offer with the given demons, devils, angels, gods, etc. It's possible that my perspective will change upon reading Gygax's books, but I do not think my ideas have less weight than his. If anything, my ideas are kind of in the same boat to most people as his original (and eventually adjusted) framework is to me. Incomplete. As I've stated before, I have an entire perspective for why things are the way they are based upon what I have been exposed to within the "classic" D&D cosmology.

Again I agree; but if someone wants to change philosophical fundamentals I want to understand why they are right and the previous ideas are wrong!?

Don't think the original/previous ideas are wrong. I think there's room for something greater (better is not an appropriate word for this kind of very subjective thing).

Obviously it was for 'ill' since 2nd Ed. was a monumental balls up for the most part*; hamstrung by ludicrous religious and socialogical constraints.

*Albeit with a few gems in there.

I respect your opinions, so I'm curious to know specifically what you mean by this.

Planescape was my favorite campaign setting thus far from any D&D source. Even in 1ed, I liked the Manual of the Planes more than any other book (save, perhaps Legends and Lore and the Demon, Devil, and Dragon sections of the Monster Manuals). Still, there were many things that disgusted me, probably because I cared about the material so much. I thought that the attempt to make the various Planes more "natural" as opposed to more fantastic and "supernatural" was a mistake. Stripping the various denizens of the Planes of their occultic nature and the idea that they are spirits was also foolish. Never liked the idea of the Eladrin, Guardinals, and other "races" for each Plane either. And there was an awful amount of inconsistency. In one book, the Lords of the Nine were gods, in another they were powerful Pit Fiends.

Too bad things are never perfect.

One of the problems I had with Planescape was the improper reasoning behind why such beings as the Demon Princes were not 'Powers'.

We're in total agreement on that one. And, what irks me is the continuation of that idea... although Cook has apparently provided an optional rule with Divine Ranks for the Lords and Princes. However, if ed Manual of the Planes is any indication, they may not peak over DvR 5.

It is possible that I'll at least get one thing I would like to see: Asmodeus with a DvR over 15! Although you may not find that especially palettable, I'd be someone satisfied.

Why couldn't it just be of 'Evil' alignment?

Well, this where I tend to tow the official line. The closest thing to "Evil" in D&D has always been Neutral Evil. The concerns of Law, Order, rationalization, and structure are irrelevent. Freedom, anarky, madness, might makes right, and other tenants of Chaos are irrelevent. It's what I want right now regardless of what you want and, preferrably, at your expense any way I can kind of Evil. That's always been Neutral Evil. The Emperor from Star Wars is like this to me.

A pure Evil that promotes Evil actively and consciously also seems to be Lawful Evil to me as well... although I suppose you also say that NE could be the same, although it's not bound by Order to the same degree...

To me this is like taking the original Batman idea and giving him super-powers.

No... It's more like taking the original Batman, stripping him of his homicidal tendancies, increasing the angst, making him a super-genius, a incomparable detective, fighter and scientist, and the epitome of Human achievement who, with all of these attributes, can take out any threat... including Superman. Were any of these components around in 1939? Nope. Did Bill Finger or Bob Kane consider these elements? Nope. Are they cool and do they give the character a gravity worthy of his position as one of the most recognizable cultural icons, and an American myth? To most comic book fans, yes.

I'm just not convinced the reverse 'just slapping Overpower status on Asmodeus' is justified.

Clearly, and you've done a superb job of stating why. I still think he should be. The suggestion you and someone else offered, making him an avatar of a far greater being, the true Overlord of Hell, or whatever, is a compromise I'd be willing to accept since it works well within my cosmology.

Incidently, I do have my gods in my campaign setting who are subservient to Asmodeus, and who are completely unaware of his true nature in my cosmology, including three Lawful Evil gods who make their homes in the Nine Hells.

In the 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes the centre of Concordant Opposition checked even Divine Power from functioning.

I'd forgotten about that.

An interesting analogy.

Thanks!

Juxtaposed to our discussion and the treatment of the Demon Princes during the 2nd Ed. 'Dark Ages' was akin to Batman's 'camp' 60s television show. Hopefully the Book of Vile Darkness will be their 'Dark Knight' renaissance?

While Asmodeus is a mythological concept - his introduction to D&D by Gary Gygax is akin to Stan Lee 'creating' the mighty Thor. He might evolve and change over time but his origins remain the same.

Therefore if you say that Asmodeus is really an Overpower personification of Lawful Evil I want to know who was the 199hp; ruby rod carrying Arch-devil ruler of the Hells we are familiar with!?

The Stan Lee thing is good...

If Asmodeus is really the Overpower personification of Lawful Evil, the guy carrying the Ruby Rod of Hell with 199 HP was his weakened "avatar." The true Asmodeus is trapped at the "bottom" of Hell where he plots to escape. The "Asmodeus" that runs around in Nessus and plays with Mephisto and Baalzebub is a smokescreen to these lesser Devils and the Planes at large. I know this sounds similar to Pramas' stuff, but I had these ideas before A Guide to Hell came out.

Yes they went further than merely changing the names, but the name changes in and of themselves were not entirely problematic (thats obvious since they have retained them for 3rd Ed.)

I honestly think they kept the names as a transitional kind of thing, not to mention an attempt not to scare the wits out of people purusing the books when they first came out. You'll remember that we slowly started seeing the words "demon" and "devil" appear towards the end of 2ed. It's kind of the same here.

Did it ever state this in any official material? I don't like loose ends.

No, to my knowledge it was never stated in any official Planescape material, although Die, Vecna, Die! pretty much states that The Lady of Pain is an Overpower in that she, along with The Serpent (who seems similar to the Asmodeus presented in A Guide to Hell in some respects) were once the original entities that established the cosmos.

She wasn't. Or at least not exactly. Won't be long until you read the Gord the Rogue novels now!

STOP THAT! I have a while to go before I make that purchase, and all you're doing is making me anxious!

I think when you read the Gord the Rogue novels you will gain an insight into the character of such beings that sets them apart from faceless personifications.

While I'm certain the books will give me an insight as to how Gygax conceived the Planes, I don't think they will broaden them in my mind. The Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine that are active in my campaign (Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, Dispater, and Asmodeus) have clear goals, interests, foibles, habits, and personalities. They are also bigger and grander than mortals and weaker gods.

I agree - this is what I describe myself as Overgods (In fact I have every planar Overgod 'bagged and tagged' in the Immortals Handbook).

But this in itself implicates more powerful entities.

I know. I've seen your list. I like it. It's broader than mine. I have two more ranks of divine beings/entities above Overpowers in my campaign, True Gods (who have an internal ranking among each other and include concepts like Time, Death, and Life), and The Creator... who is dead.

But they were never archetypes before. They were individuals. That doesn't mean such archetypes don't exist - just that its not them!

Aside from it not being the original framework, why can't it be them? There are many things that weren't before until someone expanded upon it or wrote it. As for Gygax's books expanding on it, unfortunately (and perhaps unfairly), he never had the opportunity to have them become part of the "official" line. As a result, other ideas cropped up, some good, some bad. All optional and as optional as his own. My option states that some of these guys and gals are more than they appear to be.

There are also 6 lines beyond this - but I will save that for the Immortals Handbook.

When is this coming out? Are you publishing it hardcopy, or while it be an electronic thing.

Personally, I would like to see it hardcopy, but I expect to get it regardless. As I've said before, I admire and respect your ideas. I wouldn't take the time to write this much stuff if I didn't. So, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you propose, I find it to be very convincing and worthy of serious consideration.

Thanks!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey, UK.

Hello mate!

...perhaps time to prune this discussion a little...

Well, I think on these boards, it's easy for an "immobile" attitude to appear. By no means to I think my ideas are the only ones, although I do favor them (they are mine after all). And, I'm of a writing school in which my ideas tend to come across as "gospel" despite my best intentions.

Me too.

Now, I happen to have a fully detailed rational for my cosmology. I've never bothered to include it on any board because, quite frankly, I felt I was being a bit presumptuous (not to mention the fact that I'm a little concerned about my ideas popping up in someone's book).

I know what you mean.

I have always stated that my ideas were just that, my ideas. I am cognizant that they may not work for everybody and that they will not often fit in with the official line. But, I think that's one of the reasons these boards are around, to have our ideas challenged and to in turn challenge other ideas.

Absolutely.

At any rate, I don't think that what Gygax and others created don't work. They work perfectly fine for a lot of people because what he and other created is in line with what many people want to see. You have the additional benefit of being familiar with ideas and concepts not central to 1ed by having read additional material from Gygax.

Yes - but we won't mention that - I don't want to make you anxious.

Don't think the original/previous ideas are wrong. I think there's room for something greater (better is not an appropriate word for this kind of very subjective thing).

'Grander' might be the word you're after?

I respect your opinions, so I'm curious to know specifically what you mean by this.

2nd Ed. was hamstrung by religious fundamentalists which coerced TSR into adopting their 'Code of Ethics' - its been a while since I have read the document but I am sure there is still a copy floating around on the net somewhere...

http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/alex/rec.games.frp.dnd/TSR-Ethics

Planescape was my favorite campaign setting thus far from any D&D source. Even in 1ed, I liked the Manual of the Planes more than any other book (save, perhaps Legends and Lore and the Demon, Devil, and Dragon sections of the Monster Manuals). Still, there were many things that disgusted me, probably because I cared about the material so much. I thought that the attempt to make the various Planes more "natural" as opposed to more fantastic and "supernatural" was a mistake. Stripping the various denizens of the Planes of their occultic nature and the idea that they are spirits was also foolish. Never liked the idea of the Eladrin, Guardinals, and other "races" for each Plane either. And there was an awful amount of inconsistency. In one book, the Lords of the Nine were gods, in another they were powerful Pit Fiends.

Too bad things are never perfect.

The reason they attempted to make the planes more natural was because as a setting they had to appeal to as many people as possible - this meant all levels of campaigning (including low levels). So they had to somehow make it safe for 1st-level characters. Whereas in 1st Ed. the Outer Planes was a dangerous setting for even experienced high-level characters.

To me Planescape made the Outer Planes 'cuddly'.

We're in total agreement on that one. And, what irks me is the continuation of that idea... although Cook has apparently provided an optional rule with Divine Ranks for the Lords and Princes. However, if ed Manual of the Planes is any indication, they may not peak over DvR 5.

I have every confidence in Monte Cook delivering a stellar product.

Obviously you can't please all the people all the time and I am sure there are points I would argue with Monte but c'est la vie.

It is possible that I'll at least get one thing I would like to see: Asmodeus with a DvR over 15! Although you may not find that especially palettable, I'd be someone satisfied.

...if it was explained well enough I would be satisfied.

No... It's more like taking the original Batman, stripping him of his homicidal tendancies, increasing the angst, making him a super-genius, a incomparable detective, fighter and scientist, and the epitome of Human achievement who, with all of these attributes, can take out any threat... including Superman. Were any of these components around in 1939? Nope. Did Bill Finger or Bob Kane consider these elements? Nope. Are they cool and do they give the character a gravity worthy of his position as one of the most recognizable cultural icons, and an American myth? To most comic book fans, yes.

Actually I have the original Batman Comic (reprint) and he was described as all the above things you mentioned.

Clearly, and you've done a superb job of stating why. I still think he should be. The suggestion you and someone else offered, making him an avatar of a far greater being, the true Overlord of Hell, or whatever, is a compromise I'd be willing to accept since it works well within my cosmology.

Then we are in agreement.

Incidently, I do have my gods in my campaign setting who are subservient to Asmodeus, and who are completely unaware of his true nature in my cosmology, including three Lawful Evil gods who make their homes in the Nine Hells.

How powerful are these gods?

The Stan Lee thing is good...

I honestly think they kept the names as a transitional kind of thing, not to mention an attempt not to scare the wits out of people purusing the books when they first came out. You'll remember that we slowly started seeing the words "demon" and "devil" appear towards the end of 2ed. It's kind of the same here.

I never had a problem using both Demon (how they are referred to by others) and Tanar'ri (race name).

STOP THAT! I have a while to go before I make that purchase, and all you're doing is making me anxious!

Sorry.

While I'm certain the books will give me an insight as to how Gygax conceived the Planes, I don't think they will broaden them in my mind. The Demon Princes and Lords of the Nine that are active in my campaign (Demogorgon, Orcus, Lolth, Dispater, and Asmodeus) have clear goals, interests, foibles, habits, and personalities. They are also bigger and grander than mortals and weaker gods.

Just wait until you read them...then we can have another few debates.

I know. I've seen your list. I like it. It's broader than mine. I have two more ranks of divine beings/entities above Overpowers in my campaign, True Gods (who have an internal ranking among each other and include concepts like Time, Death, and Life), and The Creator... who is dead.

...well you may have seen an old list.

When is this coming out? Are you publishing it hardcopy, or while it be an electronic thing.

We need to wait for Deities & Demigods to enter the SRD.

Still a few minor changes to make to the first section (of four)

Worship
Magic (and Magic Items)
Monsters
Realms (and Adventures)

Personally, I would like to see it hardcopy, but I expect to get it regardless.

I appreciate the interest mate.

As I've said before, I admire and respect your ideas. I wouldn't take the time to write this much stuff if I didn't.

So, although I don't necessarily agree with everything you propose, I find it to be very convincing and worthy of serious consideration.

Hey! If we agreed on everything we would have nothing to debate.

 

[The Serge]

Hello mate!

...perhaps time to prune this discussion a little...

Indeed...

The reason they attempted to make the planes more natural was because as a setting they had to appeal to as many people as possible - this meant all levels of campaigning (including low levels). So they had to somehow make it safe for 1st-level characters. Whereas in 1st Ed. the Outer Planes was a dangerous setting for even experienced high-level characters.

To me Planescape made the Outer Planes 'cuddly'.

Agreed. I do think there are places where lower level play can be found out in the Planes and I think Sigil, the Outlands, and the Gatetowns took care of that (don't remember if there were equivalent planar places in 1ed). However, I never really saw any of the Outer Planes, and most of the Inner Planes (except maybe Air) as really being conducive to lower-level play. Besides, in my mind, the Planes are about "heaven and hell." There's so much to do in the "mundane" world and it's in the mundane world (in my campaigns) that PCs learn that the real power, the power of ideas, thoughts, and truths, is beyond...

How powerful are these gods?

One is a lesser god and has his realm in Cania. Another is an intermediate goddess and has her realm in Phlegethos. The final one, and the most dangerous god in my cosmology is a Greater god and has his realm in Nessus. I've toyed with the idea that he's an extention of "my" Asmodeus, but I'm not certain I want to do that. As it stands, he has a non-aggression pact with Asmodeus and the other Lords (in fact, they're allies of a sort), has a lovely relationship with Tiamat, and has no idea of Asmodeus' true nature.

In my campaign, one of my three major pantheons control certain areas. Interloper entities, like the Lords of the Nine (really only Asmodeus), some of the Demon Princes (Demogorgon, and Orcus), and other god-like entities (Bahamut, Tiamat, the Elemental Lords, etc) have small cults since they really don't have a "right" to poach worshippers. Furthermore, these entities are "greater" than traditional gods in that they have concerns across multiple cosmologies.

Personally, I've never understood how entities like these, who are spread over many different Prime Material Planes, can be ranked so lowly... What are your thoughts on that?

We need to wait for Deities & Demigods to enter the SRD.

When do we expect that to happen? DO we expect that to happen?

Anyway, it's been fun! I hope this has been "pruned" to a reasonable length?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Serge mate!

In my campaign, one of my three major pantheons control certain areas. Interloper entities, like the Lords of the Nine (really only Asmodeus), some of the Demon Princes (Demogorgon, and Orcus), and other god-like entities (Bahamut, Tiamat, the Elemental Lords, etc) have small cults since they really don't have a "right" to poach worshippers. Furthermore, these entities are "greater" than traditional gods in that they have concerns across multiple cosmologies.

All gods have concerns across multiple cosmologies.

Personally, I've never understood how entities like these, who are spread over many different Prime Material Planes, can be ranked so lowly... What are your thoughts on that?

Simple. You are not giving other 'Gods' full credit.

Odin might be worshipped under a dozen different identities on a hundred worlds with followers numbering in the billions. He has at least 30 deities under his command, many with potentially millions of worshippers in their own right. Not counting hundreds of Hero-deities, the Einheriar. All this is backed by hundreds of millions of souls/spirits/petitioners.

Asmodeus has, at best; 2 Lesser Gods, 6 Demigods, 99 Hero-deities and millions of souls/spirits (many evolved into the Baatezu). You could argue that he only really has 2 Demigods and about a dozen Hero-deities at his personal disposal...though I am sure facing an external threat he could call upon Mephisto and Baalzebul to provide assistance.

Likewise, the Demon Monarchs probably have a handful of Princes and a dozen or so Lords to command, as well as millions of souls/spirits (many evolved into Tanar'ri).

The Gord the Rogue novels (sorry to bring them up again) have numerous large scale battles as well as many personal confrontations between beings of power that should not only entertain you, but give you an insight into the kind of might Gary Gygax envisioned for such beings.

When do we expect that to happen? DO we expect that to happen?

Sooner rather than later.

Best case scenario, about a month I think? Or at least by then I should know exactly when.

Anyway, it's been fun! I hope this has been "pruned" to a reasonable length?

Just about.