D&D 2E The dark elf +2EL, The satyr +2EL but....

[Camarath]

Getting the [Fey] type

I forgot about the Fey type in my estimation. That does IMO makes it too strong to be a LA +2 creature so the Satyr would have to be LA+3 with out the pipes. I am sorry I forgot about that. And after further consideration the Pipe's Fear affect is very strong and necessitates an additional LA. So I guess LA +3 with out pipes or LA +4 is more appropriate than my initial estimation.

 

[Camarath]

You asked for an example. There it is.

I meant at LA+1. That is why I said a "by the book Hobgoblin". The book says they are LA+1. I was asking for an example of a LA+1 Hobgoblin build that is more powerful than an equally well crafted Human build.

 

[Camarath]

Heck, Genasi get a type change (to Outsider) and usually have equal stat adjustments to LA +0 races, along with minor spell-likes at they are LA +1.

I usually use Genasi as mini-templates. I feel the addition of a normal race's abilities helps to justify their LA+1.

Compare to the Gray Orc featured in RoF who get little more than a wis bonus (with commensurate negatives) and +10 speed yet are LA +1.

I don't agree with that LA either. IMO they look like a LA+0 but I have not played one so I could be wrong. The least WotC could do if they are going to stick to their “Unbalanced Ability Score Always Equals a LA” principle is make the 3.5 Wood Elf a LA+1.

People do actually consider the Dark Elf a decent LA +2 (as opposed to people who think Genasi are a very weak +1).

I personally think they are a little on the weak side of LA+2 but I think they are too strong to be a LA+1. So I usually just give them Poison Use and call it a day.

The only way this race is balanced at LA +2 is if you take the Fey levels as the MM requires. I could see reducing it from 5 to 3. Keep in mind this is for a balanced 3.5 campaign, and since you already seem to skew things in favor of taking Non-PC races (by making Hobgoblin +0) this may not be an appropriate analysis for you. In any estimation, the dark elf is far weaker than the satyr for LA +2. 'Nuff Said.

Technik

I was wrong about the Satyr. I think you were right LA+3 with out the pipes and LA+4 with them. I also think I tend to either play high powered high magic games where special racial benefits may not be as powerful as they normally are or very low magic meat grinder games with very few racial options. So some of my opinions on what class levels and what racial abilities are worth may be a bit off as far as normal games are concerned.

 

[James McMurray]

I meant at LA+1. That is why I said a "by the book Hobgoblin". The book says they are LA+1. I was asking for an example of a LA+1 Hobgoblin build that is more powerful than an equally well crafted Human build.

Oh, well I can't give you that one, because the LA for hobgoblin is balanced, meaning that a human of equl ECL will be fairly equal in ability.

 

[Philip]

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

Hello! There are few characters I know of who wouldn't trade one level for a +2 to Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha.

It translates to 4+level extra skill points, +level hit points, +1 on Reflex, Will and Fort saves, possible bonus spells and other special powers, +1 on AC (and +1 to hit for those with Weapon Finesse), +1 on all but Strength related skill checks.

It's more than most classes get when they get another level, trust me.

 

[Camarath]

Oh, well I can't give you that one, because the LA for hobgoblin is balanced, meaning that a human of equl ECL will be fairly equal in ability.

Which LA is in your opinion balanced the 3.0 DMG LA of +0 or the SS/3.5 LA of +1?

 

[Korak]

Satyr are weak, even at LA+2

One thing most of you seem to be neglecting is the racial HD that must be stacked on top of the LA. The Fey HD are VERY weak for melee characters. The acid test is crucial.

Would you rather have a human ranger 11 with 6 attacks per round (assuming two weapon mastery) and 11 BA, or a Satyr ranger 4 with 3 attacks per round and 6 BA. Seriously... FIVE less base attack and half the attacks. Any ECL11 level melee with 6 BA is crap for that matter. And, with ECL7 from satyr including no casting ability, you can forget about any spellcaster progression... ECL 11 and not even 3rd level spells.... right.

The best course of action to get a playable Satyr would be to break down the skill, stat, natural armor, and DR bonuses into racial levels (ie, DR 1/cold iron for each racial HD taken) and possibly allow a charater to only have 2-3 racial HD along with a +2 LA before taking the first class level. I haven't gone to that trouble yet. However, by using the ever critical acid test, something playable should be found in that vein.