D&D 2E The dark elf +2EL, The satyr +2EL but....

[Camarath]

LA +3.

Those stat adjustments are NICE, and if you compare to the dark elf at +2, way better (without a single negative, even!).

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

You guys are cutting Cold Iron/5 way short. Remember, there is no "catch all" material and for a PC this power alone is LA +1 or +2. Against I'd say easily 50% of your enemies it will be equivelant to DR 5/-. This power is like the sniverblin's +4 dodge to everything, its huge.

It is only 5 points. If it was 10 or more it would be worth +2 but DR 5 is IMO only worth a +1.

Also, lets not forget +4 Nat. Armor. Dark Elves have SR so they both have defenses (with their ups and downs) but I'd say +4 Nat Armor is more powerful, all around (especially at lower levels).

A +4 Natural Armor is more powerful than SR? I don't agree with that. Armor bonuses are easy to come by but a good SR can almost only be had by taking a Race or class with SR. With the ability adjustments I would say I is worth a +1 (so +2 so far).

The natural attacks don't count, and pipes don't count if you don't let the DC increase.

I agree. It is a weak attack. But the pipes could still be a threat at their base DC of 10+ Cha mod so if you allow them I think they should be worth +1 (so total +3 with pipes).

+4 to a bunch of skill checks is, once again, better than the dark elf. Dark elves get +2 to 3 skills, satyrs have +4 to 5 skills, a difference of 14 (!) skill points. I would say this and the stats could be LA +2.

+10 base speed is also a nice bennie, not nice enough for an LA on its own, but not as insignificant as most race's bonuses (Orc Blood? +1 attack Goblinoids?).

I think these two sets of abilities are worth only a little more than any base race's abilities so I would not give them a LA.

Overall I would place them at a +3 LA, solid, without class levels. If you add in the pipes they make for a weak +4 LA. Compare them to the half-dragon template, half-fiends, and some other LAs. Honestly the best route is probably just to take the satyr levels (with an LA +2).

Technik

I think he Satyr is a strong LA +2 with out the pipes. It is too weak IMO to be a +3 LA with out the pipes. With them it should be LA +3.

Half-Dragon
Might Gain Flight if Large+
Natural armor improves by +4
2 Claw attacks 1 Bite attack
Breath Weapon: 6d8 1/d (with Natural Armor and Attacks LA+1)
Immunity to sleep and paralysis effects and one Elemental Immunity (LA +1)
Str +8, Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2. (LA+1)
Total LA+3 (also gains base creature abilities)

This looks a good bit stronger than the Satyr to me. The pipes would add the untility to balance them out IMO.

Half-fiend
Gains Flight (LA at least +1)
Natural armor improves by +1
2 Claw attacks 1 Bite attack
Smite Good 1/d
Spell-Like Abilities
Darkvision 60 feet.
Immunity to poison and Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10. (LA+1)
Damage reduction: 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more) (LA+1)
A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Spell resistance equal to creature’s HD + 10 (maximum 35) (LA+1)
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2 (maybe worth another LA)
Total LA+4 (also gains base creature abilities)

This looks a lot stronger than the Satyr even with the pipes.

 

[James McMurray]

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

According to Savage Species, any stat modifiers that are not balanced are worth +1 LA. Had it been +6 to strength, that would have been worth +2 LA.

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

SavS agrees.

A +4 Natural Armor is more powerful than SR? I don't agree with that. Armor bonuses are easy to come by but a good SR can almost only be had by taking a Race or class with SR. With the ability adjustments I would say I is worth a +1 (so +2 so far).

SavS says natural armor is worth at least +1 LA, with an extra +1 per 5 opints of natural armor. That would put Satyrs at +1 LA for armor.

However, the problem is that SavS does not even follow its own guidelines. The half-dragon for instance should be at least +4 LA, but SavS only gives them +3.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

Hello all. I was looking to create a Satyr Character with ECL 3. The Satyrs have +2EL, but must get 5 levels of fey (Savage Species, MM). The Dark elf and The satyr arent so different (maybe just a little) AND the dark elf can go Class levels in ECL 3. WHY The satyr Cannot get Class levels in ECL 3 too? Its just not fair.

The Satyr is a leval adjustment +2, ECL 7. You forgot to add it's racial HD.

 

[Darkness]

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

Hobgoblin
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Speed 30'
darkvision 60'
+4 to Move Silently
Languages: Common, GOblin
Fav Class: Fighter
Level Adjustment: +1

 

[Camarath]

Hobgoblin
+2 Dex, +2 Con
Speed 30'
darkvision 60'
+4 to Move Silently
Languages: Common, Goblin
Fav Class: Fighter
Level Adjustment: +1

I always thought that was a particularly cruel joke. In no way I can see is a +2 to Dex and Con worth an entire class level. If someone has an example of any character that would be stronger as a by the book Hobgoblin that it would be as a Human I would be interested to see it. I have used the Hobgoblin at LA +0 for a long time and have not had any problem with it. Overall it has not proven it self any stronger than an Orc, a Human or a 3.5 Dwarf.

Orc Traits (Ex): Orcs possess the following racial traits.
— +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma.
—An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.
—Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon.
—Favored Class: Barbarian.
LA +0

HUMANS
• Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Human base land speed is 30 feet.
• 1 extra feat at 1st level.
• 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
• Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill.
• Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.
LA+0

DWARVES
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
• Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
• Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
• Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too.
• +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
• +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
• Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing
LA+0

 

[HammerFist]

According to the DMG, Hobgoblins have a +0 ECL.

That's the cruel joke.

BTW, Dwarves Rock, and they should have more bonuses than everybody else!

 

[James McMurray]

At LA+0 any rogue is going to be better off than a straight human. The con and dex help to accentuate both a rogue's strength (dex related skills) and his weakness (low hit points). The +4 to Move Silently makes up for the lack of a feat (by being better than Skill focus).

Darkvision is invaluable to anyone who wants to stalthily scout out a nocturnal or dungeon environment because it means you don't need a light source. (I hear those things make it really hard to hide in an otherwise dark area).

The only thing you really lose is the bonus skill points. However, the bonus to dex partly offsets that, putting your skill bonuses higher. The fact that rogues get so many skill points goes the rest of the way in offsetting that.

You asked for an example. There it is.

Fighters also are better because of the higher Con. Fighters get enough feats that losing the human's level one feat isn't much, and they already have crappy skills, so losing an extra skill isn't that bad either. Again the darkvision and stat bonuses bring them into the lead.

 

[Leopold]

that may be that the stuff is a +4 according to SS but remember the acid test! That's the money maker there! put a 1st level fighter half-dragon(any) against a 5th level fighter and watch the fighter beat the living snot out of him. Garundangtee it!

This puppy (satyr) is an ECL (total) of +7. It's got D6 HD and compare that to a rogue. Would you be a satyr/rogue 1 or 8th level rogue? That is about a good mix right there. I'd take either or there. Add another level then you might as well take the rogue as it will whoop up on it silly.

 

[James McMurray]

I personally wouldn't be a Satyr / anything.

 

[Technik4]

I do not think the stats in and of themselves are good enough for a +1. If it was a +6 to Str then it would be worth it. But a +2 dex, con, int, wis, cha just is not good enough.

Ok, see above please. Heck, Genasi get a type change (to Outsider) and usually have equal stat adjustments to LA +0 races, along with minor spell-likes at they are LA +1. So trust me:

+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
and
+4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot

LA +1.

It is only 5 points. If it was 10 or more it would be worth +2 but DR 5 is IMO only worth a +1.

Getting the [Fey] type and Damage Reduction 5/Cold Iron is definitely worth at least LA +1. Again, compare them to Genasi or any other LA race that gains a new (non-humanoid) type. Its by and large more powerful because things like Charm Person, Hold Person, and others that specifically affect humanoids don't affect you. There aren't any good examples but you are living in the past if you think "just" 5 DR isn't good. For any type of warrior thats a good chance of ignoring 5 pts per swing, unless your opponent is specifically gunning for you (or happens to have that material). Check your modules, this is way huge.

LA +2 (total)

+4 Natural Armor and +10 Speed is easily worth LA +1. Compare to the Gray Orc featured in RoF who get little more than a wis bonus (with commensurate negatives) and +10 speed yet are LA +1.

LA +3 (total)

I agree. It is a weak attack. But the pipes could still be a threat at their base DC of 10+ Cha mod so if you allow them I think they should be worth +1 (so total +3 with pipes).

Ok, pipes are an optional LA +1 to the total.

Now, I realize that the more LAs you stack, the greater the bonuses have to be to justify them, but look at the following races and tell me they aren't at least a decent race:


Misc
+2 Dex, +2 Cha
+4 Hide, +4 Move Silently
[Fey] Subtype


Weirdos
+2 Int, +2 Wis
+4 Listen, +4 Perform, +4 Spot
+2 Nat. Armor
+10 Speed


Rockmen
+2 Con
+2 Nat. Armor
DR 5/Cold Iron
Natural Horn Attack

Each one of those are easily LA +1. The first makes great rogues, bards or sorcerors. The second can be a light-armored fighter, cleric, or wizard (probably multi) and the third is your heavy guy - fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, you name it. The satyr has all of those benefits put together. You compare them to a dark elf, allow me to put their stats by comparison (since you believe them merely a +2).

From 3.5 MM:

Drow Traits (Ex):
[Humanoid (Elf)]
+2 Int, +2 Cha
Base Speed 30 ft
Darkvision 120 feet
SR 11+class levels
Immunity to Sleep Spells and +2 bonus against enchantments
+2 bonus on Will saves against spells
+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot
Auto-Detect Secret Doors if within 5 ft.
Spell-like abilities: Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire
Weapon Prof: Hand X-bow, Rapier, and Shortsword
Light Blindness
LA +2

Satyr Traits
[Fey]
+2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha
Base Speed 40 ft
Low-light Vision
Natural Armor +4
+4 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Move Silently, +4 Perform, +4 Spot
Bonus Feat: Alertness
Natural Weapons: Headbutt (1d6)
Proficient with all Simple Weapons and Shortbow
Damage Reduction 5/cold iron
LA +2 (but you must take 5 levels of Fey)

Ok, you neglected to mention the bonus feat Alertness and the low-light vision. I think its blazingly clear that a Fey at LA +2 would be over-the heck-powered compared to a Dark Elf. All the Dark Elf has thats better is SR (and since the dark elf is 2 levels behind, that SR still isn't "awesome"). The skills are ridiculous to compare, even counting the auto-elf detection as 10 skill points (and it sure isn't worth that) the satyr is 4 points up. Thats not including Alertness as a bonus feat. Oh and dark elves have that Light Blindness ability (which costs a feat to remove) which can be a serious weak point, especially if your enemy realizes it. Between its natural weapon and shortbow prof I'd say the dark elf is slightly ahead, but any fighting class will buy you all the weapons you want.

People do actually consider the Dark Elf a decent LA +2 (as opposed to people who think Genasi are a very weak +1). Your satyr as written makes it silly to NOT play one. You add in pipes and its easily LA +4. It may not be as good as a half-fiend in pure combat, but some of its abilities are well worth it (and a Half-fiend's DR/magic is worth SO much less than a Satyr's, even if does eventually become DR 10/magic).

The only way this race is balanced at LA +2 is if you take the Fey levels as the MM requires. I could see reducing it from 5 to 3. Keep in mind this is for a balanced 3.5 campaign, and since you already seem to skew things in favor of taking Non-PC races (by making Hobgoblin +0) this may not be an appropriate analysis for you. In any estimation, the dark elf is far weaker than the satyr for LA +2. 'Nuff Said.

Technik