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The Dawn of Magic: Another Way to Look at Magic's Effect on Society
- Thread starter Speaker
- Start date
Let's take this slow
First off we should realize that communication in a medieval setting is severly limited. Also one must decide what is happening when magic suddenly arises. At what level is magic. Will the PCs(and a few select NPCs) have to discover the magics above 0-level. Or will there suddenly be high level casters capable of the highest level spells?
I would suggest the such a world start out slowly. It would be complex enough to have simple spells available all of a sudden. If people in europe during "medieval times" were instantly capable of the highest levels of magic, it could result in wars which could easily match the death toll of the plague.
Once one decides what degree of magic is initially available, then other issues can be resolved more easily.
volcivar
First off we should realize that communication in a medieval setting is severly limited. Also one must decide what is happening when magic suddenly arises. At what level is magic. Will the PCs(and a few select NPCs) have to discover the magics above 0-level. Or will there suddenly be high level casters capable of the highest level spells?
I would suggest the such a world start out slowly. It would be complex enough to have simple spells available all of a sudden. If people in europe during "medieval times" were instantly capable of the highest levels of magic, it could result in wars which could easily match the death toll of the plague.
Once one decides what degree of magic is initially available, then other issues can be resolved more easily.
volcivar
I suspect that things would start out low-powered at first. And much to some people's surprise. A village wise-woman sees her poultice heal a wound, an alchemist watches as his latest experiment produces a result he did not expect.
To simulate this in D&D one would have to expand on the spell creation rules. Player experimentation would most likely result in a spell list much different than the one in the rules.
I know there's more to be said about this, but I can't think of a dang thing.
To simulate this in D&D one would have to expand on the spell creation rules. Player experimentation would most likely result in a spell list much different than the one in the rules.
I know there's more to be said about this, but I can't think of a dang thing.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Context
This is a very interesting question, but I agree that the answer depends a great deal on a more specific idea of when and where the advent of magic happens.
Think for instance of the cool dramatic possibilities of magic invading the world during the 5th century just as the Western Empire is collapsing. That period is cool as heck anyways, but when you add the dynamic of both the faltering legions and the burgeoning barbarians attempting to master these powers even as they faced each other, hhooooo BABY!!!
What would the world be like if the real Arthur had a level of magical might comensurate with even the wildest tales?
What if the highly trained intellectuals who spent the next few generations dying off saw a reason to preserve the classical tradition and had the power to do it?
Also, if there was anytime when the Church would have been grateful for magical power, this was it.
Plus the new dynamics would have dramatically affected the formation of Feudalism, monastacism, and Europe itself.
Damn, this would have been a nice setting proposal.
This is a very interesting question, but I agree that the answer depends a great deal on a more specific idea of when and where the advent of magic happens.
Think for instance of the cool dramatic possibilities of magic invading the world during the 5th century just as the Western Empire is collapsing. That period is cool as heck anyways, but when you add the dynamic of both the faltering legions and the burgeoning barbarians attempting to master these powers even as they faced each other, hhooooo BABY!!!
What would the world be like if the real Arthur had a level of magical might comensurate with even the wildest tales?
What if the highly trained intellectuals who spent the next few generations dying off saw a reason to preserve the classical tradition and had the power to do it?
Also, if there was anytime when the Church would have been grateful for magical power, this was it.
Plus the new dynamics would have dramatically affected the formation of Feudalism, monastacism, and Europe itself.
Damn, this would have been a nice setting proposal.
Jeremy Ackerman-Yost
Explorer
Was this question in any way inspired by the upcoming "Lionheart" game? If not, I'd recommend taking a look at the timelines they've posted at rpgvault. For anyone not familiar with IGN, the links to the earlier timelines will be at the bottom of the page.
The concept of the game is that magic was introduced into the world during the Third Crusade. They then went ahead and built an alternate timeline up until the game itself takes place in 1588. The timelines are a fun read, and it gets at some of the questions we're talking about here.
And there's further info at the main Lionheart website as well.
The concept of the game is that magic was introduced into the world during the Third Crusade. They then went ahead and built an alternate timeline up until the game itself takes place in 1588. The timelines are a fun read, and it gets at some of the questions we're talking about here.
And there's further info at the main Lionheart website as well.
s/LaSH
First Post
One thing that would happen a lot would be magical accidents. People, especially wizards, would have to research new spells, and because they have absolutely no idea what they're doing they could very easily end up blowing their laboratory to smithereens, creating owlbears, or flooding a city with frogs that reproduce every time they croak. Or all three at once.
Sorcerers probably wouldn't have as much problem, as they're more instinctive, but they might easily produce some bizarre effects on their own, 'fooling around'. Psions and the like could easily unleash alien mindsets into the world (mindplagues). Clerics and other divine casters seem to be at an advantage here, because they're just conduits for some form of supernatural power, but they still might have accidents at first. (I had a discussion once about healing spells making people pop. It's the positive, healing energy that does it. I came to the conclusion that they had to develop filters and complicated spell procedures just to protect the people they're trying to heal.)
By an amazing coincidence, I'm actually working on a spell research system in my spare time, but it's in early pre-development right now. It's pretty free-form too, but I hope to have some specific guidelines. The basic idea is that wizards have to research spells at a certain cost, and in the process they create things that might not be such a good idea if you think about it. Like owlbears or demonic spirits. Or splitfrog plagues.
Sorcerers probably wouldn't have as much problem, as they're more instinctive, but they might easily produce some bizarre effects on their own, 'fooling around'. Psions and the like could easily unleash alien mindsets into the world (mindplagues). Clerics and other divine casters seem to be at an advantage here, because they're just conduits for some form of supernatural power, but they still might have accidents at first. (I had a discussion once about healing spells making people pop. It's the positive, healing energy that does it. I came to the conclusion that they had to develop filters and complicated spell procedures just to protect the people they're trying to heal.)
By an amazing coincidence, I'm actually working on a spell research system in my spare time, but it's in early pre-development right now. It's pretty free-form too, but I hope to have some specific guidelines. The basic idea is that wizards have to research spells at a certain cost, and in the process they create things that might not be such a good idea if you think about it. Like owlbears or demonic spirits. Or splitfrog plagues.
Buttercup
Princess of Florin
This is a very interesting question.
Besides the issues others have raised, we have to consider the luck of the draw. If the monarch suddenly becomes a sorcerer, magic might be viewed very differently than if he or she does not.
And the response might vary in different places. In one community, the person who acquires magic might be very circumspect about it, and no one would even know for quite some time. In another community, a person without much common sense (a low wisdom score, if you will) would suddenly acquire the power and use it stupidly and publicly. In yet another community, a sociopath might be the most visible user of this new magic.
Besides the issues others have raised, we have to consider the luck of the draw. If the monarch suddenly becomes a sorcerer, magic might be viewed very differently than if he or she does not.
And the response might vary in different places. In one community, the person who acquires magic might be very circumspect about it, and no one would even know for quite some time. In another community, a person without much common sense (a low wisdom score, if you will) would suddenly acquire the power and use it stupidly and publicly. In yet another community, a sociopath might be the most visible user of this new magic.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
By the d&d rules, none of that would happen. Hardly anyone can afford the huge monetary expenses required to research a spell, and if they could, they would most likely not expend it on researching a spell (even sorcerors and clerics).
The only people I can think of who would end up with spells would be alchemists if spell research has to follow the criteria of spending a lot of money and trying to do the impossible.
The only people I can think of who would end up with spells would be alchemists if spell research has to follow the criteria of spending a lot of money and trying to do the impossible.
Tonguez said:The Current Church will declare all such magic to be manifestations of the worlds Devil-figure and launch a purge against all arcane and non-official divine casters wiping them out of exisitence.
They will encourage the superstitious peasantry to hand over suspected demon-possessed, and tainted children
All and any possibility of magic outside the church will be suppressed and destroyed until only a small cabal in the Churches inner sanctum know anything of the Art
They will institute a new codified system called science which they will claim is based on rational logic and with no hint of magic involved.
Perhaps a few isolated enclaves will survive, but their history will be trivialised by the powers that be and declared to be 'fairystories'. Later as the influence of the Church begins to falter under the onslaught of science and Rational humanism idle libertines will find snippets of the old magic and apply their own weird theories to create a new-age tradition or else start calling themselves pyscics
At leasts thats what happened on Earth
If BS was true it would be. Fortunately it is not.
NoOneofConsequence
First Post
Canis said:
Canis, but a lazy intelligentsia is really a product of the late 20th Century Western malaise. As recently as the 1960's, intelligentsia - in the form of university and college staff and students - were involved in radical political action as a matter of course. The Weathermen, SNCC, SDS are all examples in the US. Not to mention Bolsheviks, a radical intelligentsia who massively influenced the course of international politics for three or four generations.
By and large, when confronted with something to which they have strong objection, intelligentsia is more likely, not less, to act radically. Give them the spells to do it with and you can bet your English Lit professor is the new hereditary "President" of the Magical States of America.
