The Dawn of Magic: Another Way to Look at Magic's Effect on Society

[Rhialto]

Benedict XII wasn't Pope yet . And when he did become Pope, he had to dedicate himself to wiping out the corruption that John XXII (his predecessor) had left in place.

For that matter, both of them were party to the French dominance of that period, and were part of a long line of French Popes... like that happened by accident (*cough*Phillip IV*cough*) .

As for John XXII turning to darker powers... one of the things I wanted to touch on in the "events" section was John XXII being discovered in hiding far in Italy, where he is attempting to roust & rebuild the survivors of the Knights Templar (destroyed by his predecessor, Clement V). And the Pope leading the Church with his dark powers...? Uh, that's not the Pope.

Anyway, I'm getting on it right now .

Hey, I'm well aware of John XXII's rather corrupt ways--though he remains a fascinating figure. Simultaneously money-grubbing and mystical, he's a hard man to place in all this. However, I have to point out that the move to Avignon, while heavily influenced by the French Crown (and engineered by John himself), was not quite the corrupt action that people have potrayed it as. While mildly debasing the Pope's authority in some quarters--mostly England and the Holy Roman Empire, which had always been rebellious--the truth of the matter was that the Popes moved in part because the situation in Rome was a mess--constant warfare, collapsing buildings, and an indefensible city that had been taken over so many times under their watch that it was starting to get habitual...

As for Benedict--in two years he'll be Pope. John is getting older, and is increasingly preoccupied with theological matters, most especially the Beatific Vision. In two years, he'll be dead. At the moment, he's facing heavy opposition from the Franciscan Spirituals, and the Holy Roman Emperor. More and more of his work is being done by subordinates, and Benedict is among the most trusted of these, as John is one of those corrupt men who like to have at least one honest man around...

Also it must be pointed out that it was PHILIP IV was the one who destroyed the Templars, something Clement wound backing against his better judgement. (Mostly because Philip had moved to fast for him to do anything to stop it.) And a major force behind Philip was--the future John XXII.

Which makes him refounding the order a little odd...

 

[seasong]

I don't suppose you would consider running it?

If you were to suddenly find yourself in Austin, TX, I'd definitely consider running The Dawn of Magic & Other Plagues on Our Heads as a short story arc .

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

If you were to suddenly find yourself in Austin, TX, I'd definitely consider running The Dawn of Magic & Other Plagues on Our Heads as a short story arc .

That does seem pretty unlikely in the near future. Though I do think the Neuroscience conference is in that part of the country this year... But then I'd have to a) get funding and b) do a $@^# poster.

Might be worth it....

Great title, by the way...

 

[mythusmage]

John and the Templars

His Holiness awoke to darkness. Yet a darkness he could see clearly in, his room limned as though by some dark light. In that darkness stood a figure. A glowering figure. The Angel of the Lord.

The Pope looked upon the dire figure with dread. There was no doubt as to what he saw. There could be none. He knew his enemies would say he was deluded or a fool, but he would know better. He would always know better.

As the Angel looked upon him, with eyes that burned with justice, he knew why the Messenger of God had come. He had a job to do. A wrong to atone for.

John fell back into sleep. In the morning he would make arrangements. Secure a safe place where his enemies could not find him. Learn where the last of the Knights could be found. The Temple would be restored. His Most Christian Majesty, Philip Roi would face justice.

******

Sir Charl looked in on his ward. The Pope slept quietly again. The good knight went over the events of the last hour. God himself had laid a charge upon the Frenchman. His oath of fealty was now with God himself, the old oath to his former king was finished. He would defend the Pope no matter what else betide. No matter what happened to his soul.

In the morning the Pope would die. And while the Church mourned the old Pope and prepared to choose a new, a knight and a cleric would travel to the land of Iberia, the kingdom of Portugal, and there lay the foundations for the return of the Knights of the Temple of Solomon, the Knights Templar.

************

That should give people ideas. A corrupt, venal Pope given the aid and protection of the Flowering's first paladin.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, it's not directly related to the topic that has sprung up, but taking a cue from the beginning of the thread, I'd like to present my personal preference of the sources of sorcery and spellcraft.

I run a fantasy setting that has both standard D&D-esque pantheons and monotheistic religions, including Christianity (a few locations have been changed, as have a few names, but the religion is much the same). I try to make sure that I, as DM, never tell the PCs what is true or false. Just like the real world, you can claim whatever you want in the circles of religion, and it's nigh impossible to disprove you. I like that, since it gives the world more verisimilitude in my opinion.

A cleric of an Elvish pantheonistic deity believes that all gods are real, and that some are good, some evil, and that there was an overarching creator of the universe who has since been destroyed and absorbed by other divinities.

A Gnomish mystic believes that there are spirits of all things, both living and unliving, and that what others call gods are just spirits of very powerful concepts. You have the river spirit, the tree spirit, the wolf spirit, and your own spirit. And then you also have the Death spirit, the Sun spirit, the Guardian spirit, and the War spirit. There is also the all-powerful Creator, who is to be revered, but who only creates the world, never interfering directly. You can revere one or many, or none (though that is foolish).

A Christian priest will probably fall into one of two camps. He might thinks that the followers of other gods are misguided but good-spirited (and perhaps they are even worshipping God but getting the name wrong). The magic of other spellcasters might be from God (just with a different name), or from demons, or maybe it's just a type of alchemy that anyone can learn. However, the priest might instead believe that worship of any other divinity is evil, and that other magical power comes from demons or other evil spirits. They don't deny the existence of other dimensions, since you can travel there if you're powerful enough, but Christian priests believe that any 'gods' there are simply powerful beings that are full of themselves.

In the same way, I think that I personally would prefer a setting based on Earth to be less centered on a particular religious model. True, Christians might believe that the Flowering is because God has removed a shielding hand, but magical power shouldn't be limited to just Christians. That doesn't mean that a Christian-oriented setting wouldn't be cool (hey, I'd enjoy it), but you then run the risk of type-casting all non-Christians as bad guys, by writ of divine law.

I prefer a setting where it is possible for both sides to believe they're on the right. It's more convincing to me, less black and white.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

...
In the same way, I think that I personally would prefer a setting based on Earth to be less centered on a particular religious model. True, Christians might believe that the Flowering is because God has removed a shielding hand, but magical power shouldn't be limited to just Christians. That doesn't mean that a Christian-oriented setting wouldn't be cool (hey, I'd enjoy it), but you then run the risk of type-casting all non-Christians as bad guys, by writ of divine law.

I prefer a setting where it is possible for both sides to believe they're on the right. It's more convincing to me, less black and white.

RangerWickett, I agree with you. The discussion has been very Christian-centric, and the "Holy Text" bits were written as if by Western scribes, which may have skewed perceptions a bit.

But we've also thrown other cosmological angles in, and I never made any illusions about the fact that my Psions were getting power from within themselves. "to where the Light of the Flowering rebounded from the Light in their own souls" implied (to me) that the two types of power there were different in kind. The Flowering may or may not have come from a God or gods, but the Divine Light in the monks' souls was intended to be exactly that. The spark of divinity that lies in every being. It's reaction to the incompatible energies in the "wave-front" of the Flowering simply drew attention to it, but it was an independent source of power.

Now, how people would interpret this is WIDE open. Buddhist monks would probably come to the conclusion as I stated it, that they have found their divine selves through their meditations. Christian monks who reach the same place through their disciplines would probably interpret it as the monks in my little story did, as the place where their God touched their souls.

Which one of them is right? My intentions while writing were skewed to the one side, but ultimately, I don't know. Do I care? Only in so far as I think the Eastern monks' hypothesis is the more aesthetically pleasing. But they both have their own poetry.

Would a Christian psionic monk and a Buddhist psionic monk argue about it? Historically speaking, probably not. Historically, these guys have gotten along pretty well. It's the clergy who stir things up.

Actually, as an aside, this may be the first time I felt Psionics fit a "fantasy" setting other than as a replacement for Sorcerors.

Now what about a Norse guy hanging out in Iceland at this time? Let's say he's getting powers from Odin. This Odin could be a god in his own right, equal to the Christian god, albeit shorter on worship. Or he could simply be an aspect of a greater Divinity, of which the Christian god is also an aspect. Or he could be a demon masquerading as Odin, who died during the Blockage of magic because his worship declined so far.

I'm just throwing ideas out there. I'm open to the interpretation of any DM who'd be willing to run this as a game. Or lack of interpretation, as the case may be.

But your point is taken, perhaps I'll expand my horizons beyond the Christians a bit. We have more or less been on a track of "Christianity...Christianity...Christianity...oh yeah, there's some psions over in Asia...Christianity...Christianity.

I wonder what's up in deepest Africa? Among the Aborigines of Australia? Over in the Americas? Not that they'd be likely to end up going by that name in this history.

Hmmm... If I manage to get something thrown together on Rangers (probably not until tomorrow evening now) they're not going to be particularly Christian. In fact, if the ideas floating around my head gel, they may even be the leading edge of the first disaster Seasong's new-and-improved Reformed Church would have to face after getting their Popes squared away. btw- I never use Evil Rangers, and I don't intend to start now.

Brain percolating...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

re: Just some revising and thinking

Pretty dang cool.

I think you should certainly add in a nasty conspiracy within the church, play up the Pope/Anti-Pope thing, and emphasize the confusion. A conspiracy that might play into the timing of the Flowering.

I thought of something: Albigensians. Much of our modern mysticism, Tarot, etc., comes from remnants of their tradition. Don't know why I didn't think of that earlier.

As for the Priest class... Dang it I been looking for a good non-fighting cleric class for forever.

Near as I figure you would drop a lot of the weapon and armor proficeinces and maybe drop the BAB down to wizard. Then you would up the skill list and skill points and maybe add another domain, a few social abilities, or give them the ability to turn more things than undead. Sorcery spell rules would really add to the flavor of someone who's just sort of come upon divine magic. The known spells thing might really underpower divine casters, though.

I'm very interested in finding/creating a low magic version of same for a Swashbuckling Adventures campaign, but have had little satisfaction.

 

[Rhialto]

Okay, some fun facts from 1332 (which by the way might work better as 1333--but that's just my opinion...)

-the King of France is Philip VI, first of the House of Valois. Philip is a weak, religious man, who though well-intentioned, is paranoid, and easily swayed.

-the Holy Roman Emperor is Louis IV, who has abolished the Papal sanction for his title, been declared a heretic numerous times, and four years ago, raised antipope Nicholas V to the pontiff. (Nicholas stepped down in 1330.)

-In Poland, Vladislav I has reunited the Polish territories. Vladislav is a great backer of the Teutonic Knights. His son Casimir III will acede to the throne next year.

-Sweden and Norway are ruled by the young king Magnus.

-Spain is divided into several kingdoms--Aragon, Castile, Catalon, and Navarre. The king situation over there is--kind of complicated...

-The greatest city of Italy is probably Genoa--which in a few years time will have a popular revolution...

 

[seasong]

Rhialto
Heh. See, now you're a historian . I think that mythusmage did a beautiful job of explaining why he might refound the Order (as well as many other things).

mythusmage
"A corrupt, venal Pope given the aid and protection of the Flowering's first paladin.

I can not thank you enough for saying this. This sentence just made my spine tingle . And, of course, the rest of it was wonderful.

RangerWickett
Agreed .

I don't think anyone here is (outside of the clergical interpretations we are offering up) taking a hard line "God as ultimate reality" approach. Indeed, my personal take on the possible events I offered up (the French King supports the papacy while the English King supports the Flock & Field) is that I, as GM, could decide that either one of them is correct... or that both are tapping their inner faith and making war over mundane differences of opinion.

But for the most part, the discussion is more about people's reactions to the Flowering than about the why & how of the Flowering itself.

Canis
Deepest Africa is a good place for a real cabal of wizards. This was the period of Great Zimbabwe (an African Shona culture that collapsed somewhere around the 1400s). They were undergoing their own crises, as the gold trade that is thought to have created the culture brought a whole host of problems in terms of disintegrating authority.

I can't find much on the Shona religious practices prior to Christianity (which Great Zimbabwe was not really exposed to), but today they have strong beliefs in ancestors, cyclopian hauntings, and hostile spirits which are mixed in with Christianity. Priests would probably treat spirits of all sorts in the same manner as undead in Europe; sorcerors would be rare but well respected (many central & southern African heroes possessed uncanny powers and magical insights). Wizards would have been commonly accepted but mistrusted, since they were usually seen as "stealing" power from spirits to work their magic.

In all likelihood, an even distribution of strange powers would take place, but those with power would very quickly be accepted into (even encouraged) the ranks of the aristocracy... and only those with a strong religious leaning for the commonfolk (bush rangers and hedge druids, perhaps?) would support them against the new regime of increased authority.

And that has just about drained my creativity for this morning .

Dr. Strangemonkey
Actually, what might work well for a priest would be this:

Take the wizard, give him access to 5 spheres rather than arcane magic. He chooses a primary sphere just like a cleric, and gets the extra spell per day in that sphere. Rather than metamagic feats, the wizard gets the Turn/Rebuke Undead, ability to channel Cure/Cause Wounds with spell levels, and the usual minor traits that come with being "holy". Replace INT with WIS for spell-related abilities, and use the Cleric's class skills.

 

[mythusmage]

mythusmage
"A corrupt, venal Pope given the aid and protection of the Flowering's first paladin.

I can not thank you enough for saying this. This sentence just made my spine tingle . And, of course, the rest of it was wonderful.
[/B]

Please remember that he is a Pope trying to redeem himself, and correct a horrid mistake.

As for the rest of it, I have my days.