The deadliest CR 18 in the world, courtesy of WotC

[RangerWickett]

Well, the Steel Dragon is broken, but. . . .

Of course, I also think Tarrasque being CR 20 is pretty nuts, too.

It depends on your tactics. A 20th level party of 4 will probably have learned the value of a simple 3rd level spell - Fly. Guess what a Tarrasque can't do.

 

[Falling Icicle]

It depends on your tactics. A 20th level party of 4 will probably have learned the value of a simple 3rd level spell - Fly. Guess what a Tarrasque can't do.

Avoiding a Tarrasque and actually killing one are two very different things.

 

[Will]

People are still missing an important point... lack of equipment.

A 21st level fighter (or sorcerer) with no equipment is, oh, somewhere in the 12-15 range. So you can't directly compare class levels.

Among other things, the dragon doesn't have an inherent +5 charisma bonus and a +6 cloak of charisma.

 

[Agent.0.Fortune]

Remember CR is based on real play experience not some crazy-math. Like all creatures, hours and hours of playtesting was put into determining the dragons CR, starting at level 1. It only took groups up to 18th level before party rolled a 20 to defeat its SR and the DM rolled a 1 for the creatures saving throw, and it was killed instantly. Therefor the CR must be 18.

 

[Diirk]

A high level druid could likely defeat one of these by him(/her)self, but doing so would likely get fire seeds banned from your game.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

People are still missing an important point... lack of equipment.

A 21st level fighter (or sorcerer) with no equipment is, oh, somewhere in the 12-15 range. So you can't directly compare class levels.

Among other things, the dragon doesn't have an inherent +5 charisma bonus and a +6 cloak of charisma.

Neither does an 18th level NPC Sorceror. A 21st level NPC Sorceror is unlikely to have those enhancements as well.

Your estimates are way off because we are looking at NPCs. A 15th level NPC is only expected to have ~59k of equipment. A 20th level NPC has ~220k of equipment.

Loss of equipment can be a huge hit to a pure Fighter going up against a magical problem, or a Sorceror without meatshields, but it only a minor inconvenience to a Magic Immune SuperGestalt Fighter/Sorceror. Besides, a dragon of that wealth level is expected to have some equipment -- a few useful scrolls, potions, wands, maybe a ring at the minimum. It is just not likely to need them in a short violent conflict.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Remember CR is based on real play experience not some crazy-math. Like all creatures, hours and hours of playtesting was put into determining the dragons CR, starting at level 1. It only took groups up to 18th level before party rolled a 20 to defeat its SR and the DM rolled a 1 for the creatures saving throw, and it was killed instantly. Therefor the CR must be 18.

Have you read the (pre-release) playtesting notes? They'd include things like, "We killed the monster with our level X group and didn't lose anyone, but the monster seemed a little hard. We tried it a few times with a level X+1 group and it was easier, but not too easy, so we made it CR X+1."

 

[Scion]

That guy is just crazy. Pretty much no matter what you have in your party this guy has an answer. Or if he doesnt he will summon someone who does.

I was checking out the lower ones as well, I am debating on another board about a CR 6 blue dragon and about how hard it is for a 5th level party..looking at this CR 5 guy the party would go from having nearly zero chance to better hopeing they are on a different continent.

Dragons are top of the food chain for any CR they are listed as, sometimes they are top for the next CR up as well. This guy is just crazy, at CR 5 he beats up the piddly CR 6 dragon. What does that mean for the CR 5?? gah..

 

[Crothian]

What guy??

 

[Scion]

What guy??

umm.. Steel Dragon

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a

that is what the thread is about yes?