The Death of Simulation

Kesh said:
The Forge is a gaming forum that is well known as the main discussion area for the GNS theory of gaming*. T

In the end it is just a model. Like most models it cannot account for everything, but for me I find it the best model at the moment to help understand design decisions and how to better choose and play games that will reward what I am looking for. What I am looking for of course will vary from time to time.

I tend to not define things exactly as others do but I hope I define it enough and the definition is robust enough that I can communicate it to others such that we can reliably speak about gaming and mean similar things.


Someone could come up with a better model and if so, I will start using that one.

There have definitely been some horribly chosen words from people at the Forge. That quote of Ron's probably not one of his more shining moments.

I hate the quote as it is wrong on so many level, though I agree with his original argument which was to say that the StoryTeller system really didn't advance narrative which is advertised it would, any better than D&D did (which is what it was trying to separate itself from).

I think heated debate becomes pointless. I try never to take the offensive as it never helps in an internet forum.
 

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I like the direction 4E is going and I'll tell you why. My gaming group (2 of whom I've gamed with since the Red Box back in gradeschool) stopped playing DnD about 2 years ago because it had grown too tedious and, frankly, too boring. We're all adults with a limited amount of free time and it became easier to just hang out since everyone's enthusiasm for 3E faded so quickly. The fights dragged on too long and the players' actions became repetitive. So they all drifted into the MMORPG world and that was that.

But the changes coming in 4E, especially the promise of giving players more options in combat (really focusing on that area) and the simplicity of their taking care of combat and interaction rules while not making a hundred thousand rules on how to use a toilet is just great. I mean, i've DM'd for years and I don't think that I've ever actually done more than glance at the Ecology/Fluff sections of the monster manuels. I don't need it. I remember where they live and I know what I want them to be doing. I don't need to roll to see if they live in a cave or a tree stump.

But, regardless, I'm going off track. My players are, for the first time in years, excited about playing DnD and that makes ME excited.
 

As Vegepygmy and others pointed out, there is also the GDS (Gamist-Dramatist-Simulationist) model. I personally don't have enough understanding of GNS to know the difference between Simulationism in both models, but if someone has time I would love to hear an overview. Big Model theory is...involved it seems, but I am willing to learn.

Here is Wikipedia's overview of GDS:

"In its most formal sense, the threefold model claims that any single GM decision (about the resolution of in-game events) can be made in order to further the goals of Drama, or Simulation, or Game. By extension, a series of decisions may be described as tending towards one or two of the three goals, to a greater or lesser extent. This can be visualised as an equilateral triangle, with a goal at each vertex, and the points between them representing different weightings of the different goals."

Note that this model describes how a campaign is run by a DM and not how a ruleset is developed by a game designer.

As someone else pointed out, a DM choosing to run a game where the rules say a character must be x to activate item y can make as many simulationist decisions as another DM using rules where characters don't even have x and item y doesn't exist at all.

Regardless of the intent of the game designers, it's the DM who actually runs the game. One of the most basic decisions that determines if a game leans towards the simulationist side has nothing to do with the ruleset at all: are encounters tailored or are they a part of the status quo? Are heroes just as likely to run into an encounter that is too high or too low for them as an encounter that's "just right"?

Theoretically, IMO you could run a campaign using the D&D Miniatures rules for combat that lean more towards simulationism than most campaigns that use 3.5. Consider the following questions:

1.) When it rains, is it for mood or did the DM use a weather pattern table?

2.) If a character dies in the middle of the wilderness, does the party look for a replacement or does the new PC find the party?

3.) Do the PCs receive income from non-combat sources, including investments in property such as strongholds, farms, caravans, etc?

4.) How did you determine if PCs have friends and relatives? How were the friends' and relatives' locations determined? How are events in their lives generated?

5.) If a character is accused of stealing from an ancestral burial ground, how is law enforcement resolved? (And more importantly how do you determine if he is accused in the first place?)

6.) If a caravan is encountered on the road, how do you determine the number of wagons and what's in them?

7.) If there is a thieves guild in a town (again, how is that determined), who is their leader? Are they willing to sell arson and assination services? How do you determine which businesses are under their protection?

You'll have a very tough time finding skirmish combat rules (which is 90% of the RPG core rules) to answer these questions. Yet it's the method that the DM uses to answer these questions that determine if a campaign is gamist/dramatist/simulationist. Does he just make up whatever story sounds cool for his group? Does he tailor things to make an interesting puzzle or scenario for the group? Or does he look for additional, non-combat rules to help him generate a world that's less subjective and biased towards the characters in game and the players at the table?

IMO, whether a DM uses tables and non-combat rules made by third parties (or older WotC supplements) will determine if a 4th edition game is simulationist or not.
 
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Celebrim said:
The 3rd edition flying movement rules are a simplification of the 1st edition rules as laid out in the DMG.

...

What 3E represents is not so much the height of simulationism in the game, but the height of simulationist elegance in the game. It produces the most elegant simulationist toolset of any edition.
Since I'm going on some very old memories for 1E AD&D rules, I'm quite willing to stand corrected on that score; your knowledge of 1E is clearly fresher than mine. I agree with your final conclusion; that's a good analysis.

In any case, the point was that 4E has changed design direction in this regard. The success of 3E rightfully attracted fans who may be unhappy that 4th edition has so abruptly adopted gamist principals that relies heavily on abstraction of in-game causality. That abstraction can most easily be put to use for player or GM-driven narrative; its harder to reverse-engineer causes from gamist generated effects. It's not impossible (see Classic Traveller), but it is markedly different from the 3E approach to causality.

:)
 

Greg K said:
7) Keeping luck and skill as aspects of hit points. We now have game elements that can reflect skill and luck and, imo, hit points no longer need to reflect these elements. Skill is covered by level bonuses to save and class defense bonuses. Luck can be simulated by the use of action points. As for lethal blows being turned into nicks, action points expenditure could be used for this as can creating a feat or ability to roll with a blow. Furthermore, by removing luck and skill, there is no longer the bizarreness of healing spells curing luck and skill.

I'm thinking that you can't really do this as long as we have ever-increasing hit points. Or some mechanism of 'hit points' at all. I think it's a sacred cow that needs to be gotten rid of.
 

takasi said:
As Vegepygmy and others pointed out, there is also the GDS (Gamist-Dramatist-Simulationist) model. I personally don't have enough understanding of GNS to know the difference between Simulationism in both models, but if someone has time I would love to hear an overview. Big Model theory is...involved it seems, but I am willing to learn.

Here is Wikipedia's overview of GDS:
.........

I think some of the limitation of GDS were the reason they developed GNS.

One BIG difference is in the drama idea.

Drama was about how can the DM craft a story around PCs. It is rules uncaring.

Narrativism is about rules that allow the players the narrative power to craft a story around their characters.

The problem was that Drama part of GDS didnt really mean much excpet by how the DM acted. This put everything in the hands of the DM. GNS is about how the rules empower each of the participants (the third participant being the rules themselves).

You mention that the DM runs the game. To what extent is the big question.

Some people believe it is DM creates and environment and the players just adventure their way through it.

Some believe that the DM creates it and adjusts it to the players (sometimes thought of as GM fiat)

Others believe rules should allow the PCs to have a huge say in what happens in the world.

They all can employ different designs that can influence how a game and in turn a campaign plays itself out.

BTW..i am not saying GNS is the end-all be-all of design and play theory. I am sure better ones can be developed. This was just some differences between GDS and GNS.

I don't really care which model is used as long as it can facilitate better understanding of gaming, playing games and game design and the social contract between players.
 
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apoptosis said:
I don't really care which model is used as long as it can facilitate better understanding of gaming, playing games and game design and the social contract between players.

I agree, I think understand game style is important in appreciating games. They are all styles, and IMO no one is 'better' than the other.

Thank you for describing the differences. Specifically, what is difference about simulationism? In GDS, reliance on world building rules is generally in the domain of Simulationism, whereas in GNS the System is defined to govern all three aspects? Any other thoughts on how simulationism differs in the two system? I don't understand it yet.
 

WayneLigon said:
I'm thinking that you can't really do this as long as we have ever-increasing hit points. Or some mechanism of 'hit points' at all. I think it's a sacred cow that needs to be gotten rid of.

I have no problem with getting rid of hit points per level (or even hit points entirely as I love the damage save of True20 and Mutants and Masterminds). However, I don't think it is necessary to get rid of hit points entirely to make what I suggest work. There are several games that use hit points, but not hit points per level, and in those games hit points do not include the concept of luck or skill in turning a potentially lethal blowi into a nick or near miss.
 

Lanefan said:
I want the campaigns I run to be entertaining, fun, internally consistent from start to finish (e.g. no splatbooks or drastic rule changes introduced halfway through), somewhat whimsical at times, luck-based to a significant degree, long (5+ years minimum), larger than any one player or PC (i.e. able to withstand the unforeseen loss of same for whatever reason), a place where what the character would do is what the character does (e.g. if it makes sense that a PC would choose to leave the party, it leaves), and a place where powergaming is of little use.

What kind of '-ist' does that make me?

Lanefan
That description sounds like pretty hard-core simulationism to me. As well as 1st ed AD&D, it sounds like you might enjoy RQ, Pendragon, Ars Magica or perhaps Rolemaster as gaming systems.

But I wouldn't be surprised if you also have a hint of 1st ed AD&D/wargaming-style gamism in you - you enjoy the competitive/problem-sovling aspect of play, but like an extremely robust simulationsit chassis to frame the nature of the problems and what counts as an acceptable solution. If this is more like you, then you might find Pendragon and Ars Magica less appealing as they would drag you too far away from that problem-solving and more into the fiddly bits of the gameworld.
 

Lanefan said:
I want the campaigns I run to be entertaining, fun, internally consistent from start to finish (e.g. no splatbooks or drastic rule changes introduced halfway through), somewhat whimsical at times, luck-based to a significant degree, long (5+ years minimum), larger than any one player or PC (i.e. able to withstand the unforeseen loss of same for whatever reason), a place where what the character would do is what the character does (e.g. if it makes sense that a PC would choose to leave the party, it leaves), and a place where powergaming is of little use.

What kind of '-ist' does that make me?

Lanefan
Welcome to the truly heroic world of simulationist.

"We don't need special metagame rules to make our characters heroes, cheats are for cheaters. Just give me the same tools that everyone else gets, let me perfect them using my own effort and I'll show what heroism is all about. We don't need "Destiny" points to artificially create memorable moments, or even to save our skin. If we die, we die. Life is cruel and sht happens, but when we manage to achieve something truly important, something that really makes a difference to the world, it's gonna be memorable because it was "real", not fabricated by cinematic rules.
In Simulationist gaming, heroism does not dictate actions. Actions dictate heroism. Heroes are made with choices, hard work, bravery and a bit of luck. We forge our destiny instead of being carried by it. Our characters make history instead of being made by the story."
 

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