D&D 5E (2014) The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Garthanos]

That's like number 25 on the balance adjustment priority list. It's there but there's a couple dozen other things that need attention first.

You should make a website elaborating on that.... suspect its more than a page.

 

[Voadam]

I'm...not sure this argument does what you intended. You seem to be holding it up to say "maybe Tenser's transformation isn't a good example of balance" and then citing a factor which further limits its power.

Tenser's seems weak. Pointing out a weakness of it seems to support the argument that Tenser's might not be a good benchmark of power and effectiveness of 5e spells in general.

I don't know that Tenser's stands up to say Mass Suggestion for 6th level concentration wizard spell combat offensive usefulness.

4th level polymorph should probably be compared to other 4th level spells. A good point of comparison would probably be the core PH wizard 4th level concentration buff spell Greater Invisibility.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

The possible exhaustion at the end is a big drawback, it does not seem that necessary to balance a 6th level concentration wizard buff to turn them into a temporary OK warrior who can't keep casting spells during the duration.

But it would make a fantastic drawback for Polymorph. And a pretty reasonable one too.

 

[Hussar]

Tenser's seems weak. Pointing out a weakness of it seems to support the argument that Tenser's might not be a good benchmark of power and effectiveness of 5e spells in general.

I don't know that Tenser's stands up to say Mass Suggestion for 6th level concentration wizard spell combat offensive usefulness.

4th level polymorph should probably be compared to other 4th level spells. A good point of comparison would probably be the core PH wizard 4th level concentration buff spell Greater Invisibility.

Greater Invisibility​

4 illusion

• Casting Time: 1 action
• Range: Touch
• Target: You or a creature you touch
• Components: V S
• Duration: Up to 1 minute
• Classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard

You or a creature you touch becomes invisible until the spell ends. Anything the target is wearing or carrying is invisible as long as it is on the target’s person.

Ok, so, you get advantage on attacks for one minute. You can't be targeted by sight spells true, and baddies have disadvantage to hit you. Effectively +5 to hit and +5 to AC. No bonuses to damage, no additionally movement potential, and no bonus HP. And, it's countered by anything with blindsight or better (not a short list of baddies).

Conversely, a 7th level caster can grant you 157 bonus HP and you can deal 6d10+12 points of damage per round, plus your speed is increased to 40 with a 40 climb speed - all as a giant ape. Oh, and you gain a ranged attack as well - huck a rock for 7d6+6 points of damage. AND you get a +10 attack bonus, which, at 7th level, is pretty good.

And you think these are balanced?

 

[Lanefan]

Oh, plenty have complaints about it. Usually centered on the "Moon Druids are unkillable because they have huge stacks of HP in animal form

Problem solved if you make the new form keep the same hit point total as the old.

and dropping them to zero just pops them back into human form!"

RAW be damned, dying is dying no matter what form you happen to be in at the time.

I can't entirely fault these concerns, given how absolutely and ridiculously OP the Druid was in 3rd edition, but yeah there are much more serious issues than 5e Wild Shape. That's like number 25 on the balance adjustment priority list. It's there but there's a couple dozen other things that need attention first.

Druid shapeshifting has in some ways been overpowered since 1e. 3e just dialled it to eleven.

 

[Hussar]

Problem solved if you make the new form keep the same hit point total as the old.

RAW be damned, dying is dying no matter what form you happen to be in at the time.

Druid shapeshifting has in some ways been overpowered since 1e. 3e just dialled it to eleven.

See, but there are problems with using a shared HP pool. Particularly for druids. The greatly reduced AC hurts. It's not hard for a druid to be running around a 16 AC (give or take). So, taking a 3 or 4 point drop in your HP, plus losing access to all your spells, just so you can deal the same damage you would do with a cantrip is definitely a non-starter.

The complaints about bears were largely overblown IMO. Yeah, it was a bit of an early bump (around 4th level or so) but, it smoothed out pretty quickly. And, again, you couldn't ever do a giant ape as a druid (need to be 21st level). So, more or less, druids were limited to size large beasts - which keeps it pretty reasonable.

I've never seen anyone complain about druids being overpowered in 5e. Other than moon druids being a bit on the high side for a couple of levels.

Certainly nothing on the level of Polymorph.

 

[Lanefan]

See, but there are problems with using a shared HP pool. Particularly for druids. The greatly reduced AC hurts. It's not hard for a druid to be running around a 16 AC (give or take). So, taking a 3 or 4 point drop in your HP, plus losing access to all your spells, just so you can deal the same damage you would do with a cantrip is definitely a non-starter.

Why would you be taking a 3 or 4 drop in your HP?

If you're a Druid at 36 h.p. with a normal maximum of 47 and you turn into a bear, in my view you're a bear at 36 h.p. with a maximum of 47. Take 8 points damage while a bear and then turn back to a Human, you're a 28 h.p. Human with a maximum of 47. (side note: to tone down shapeshifting just a bit, I long ago ruled that any damage taken while shapeshifting - it takes half a round - is internalized and thus permanent, and cannot be cured by any means)

Yes, you're easier to hit - but in melee you're hella better at hitting back, until higher level at which point why is a Druid in melee combat in the first place?

That said, 99% of the time I see shapeshifting used it's not combat-related, instead it's either for tracking (as a bloodhound, pig, or other critter with a good sense of smell) or flight (as a bird, either for scouting or - much more often - just to get somewhere faster).

 

[Hussar]

Whoops, sorry, 3 or 4 point drop in AC not hp. My bad.

And, no, you're not really much better at hitting back. Most animal forms aren't doing much more damage than a druid could simply do on their own. So, losing the HP bump is a big deal. And, realistically, it's no different than simply giving the druid Rage instead of shapechange. It's essentially the same thing. Double your HP, drop your AC a bit, deal about the same damage.

But, yeah, it's the out of combat aspects of shape change that I see a lot as well. Which, frankly, aren't really a problem AFAIC, so, don't need any work. Druid as scout is a pretty solid option.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

RAW be damned,

If one is ever tempted to say "RAW be damned," that's...pretty clearly an indication that there's something wrong with the rules, no? Even if I disagree with you about this specific choice, we seem to be of the same mind that some kind of problem is found here.

Druid shapeshifting has in some ways been overpowered since 1e. 3e just dialled it to eleven.

It's perfectly balanced in 13th Age though! I genuinely love the design of the 13A Druid. They actually managed to solve the problem of the class trying to be 7 things all at once, half of them stupidly overpowered!

 

[Maxperson]

Because I see the reading of that polymorph rule as inherently bad or adversarial?

It's not. Following RAW is not adversarial, nor does it make the DM a bad one. The spell is not supposed to be as powerful as people want to make it. That's why the limitations are written into the spell. I wouldn't have a problem with removing the limitations and making it 6th level.