D&D 5E (2014) The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Voadam]

Alignment is not.

Alignment is not a game statistic? It is part of a monster's stat block and there are game effects that can trigger off it. Not a lot in 5e, but there are.

 

[Maxperson]

Alignment is not a game statistic? It is part of a monster's stat block and there are game effects that can trigger off it. Not a lot in 5e, but there are.

It has no anything to it. You can erase it and nothing changes. Tiny has mechanics. Hit points have mechanics. Speed has mechanics. Damage has mechanics. Alignment? Nope. It's not a statistic any more than personality is.

A few magic items don't change that.

 

[Voadam]

It has no anything to it. You can erase it and nothing changes. Tiny has mechanics. Hit points have mechanics. Speed has mechanics. Damage has mechanics. Alignment? Nope. It's not a statistic any more than personality is.

A few magic items don't change that.

So under your view, the spell says change game statistics. It also says explicitly retain nonstatistics alignment and personality. Memory is a nonstatistic that the spell does not address.

Shouldn't the spell RAW only change the game statistics?

If the spell said retain only alignment and personality that would seem different to me. If the spell affirmatively said it changed the nonstatistics elements of the mind of the target that would seem different to me.

In AD&D it specified such changes.

Polymorph Other (Alteration)
Level: 4 Components: V, S, M
Range: ½”/level Casting Time: 4 segments
Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: Neg.
Area of Effect: One creature
Explanation/Description: The polymorph other spell is a powerful magic which completely alters the form and ability, and possibly the personality and mentality, of the recipient. Of course, creatures with a lower intelligence cannot be polymorphed into something with a higher intelligence, but the reverse is possible. The creature polymorphed must make a “system shock” (cf. CONSTITUTION) roll to see if it survives the change. If it is successful, it then acquires all of the form and abilities of the creature it has been polymorphed into. There is a base 100% chance that this change will also change its personality and mentality into that of the creature whose form it now possesses. For each 1 point of intelligence of the creature polymorphed, subtract 5% from the base chance. Additionally, for every hit die of difference between the original form and the form it is changed into by the spell, the polymorphed creature must adjust the base chance percentage by +/-5% per hit die below or above its own number (or level in the case of characters). The chance for assumption of the personality and mentality of the new form must be checked daily until the change takes place. (Note that all creatures generally prefer their own form and will not willingly stand the risk of being subjected to this spell!) If a one hit die orc of 8 intelligence is polymorphed into a white dragon with 6 hit dice, for example, it is 85% (100% - [5% × 8 intelligence] + [(6 - 1) × 5%] = 85%) likely to actually become one in all respects, but in any case it will have the dragon’s physical and mental capabilities; and if it does not assume the personality and mentality of a white dragon, it will know what it formerly knew as well. Another example: an 8th level fighter successfully polymorphed into a blue dragon would know combat with weapons and be able to employ them with prehensile dragon forepaws if the fighter did not take on dragon personality and mentality. However, the new form of the polymorphed creature may be stronger than it looks, i.e. a mummy changed to a puppy dog would be very tough, or a brontosaurus changed to an ant would be impossible to squash merely from being stepped on by a small creature or even a man-sized one. The magic-user must use a dispel magic spell to change the polymorphed creature back to its original form, and this too requires a “system shock” saving throw. The material component of this spell is a caterpillar cocoon.

 

[Maxperson]

So under your view, the spell says change game statistics. It also says explicitly retain nonstatistics alignment and personality. Memory is a nonstatistic that the spell does not address.

Yes it does address it. It gives the non-statistic portions that are retained. If you get told what it is that you retain, you don't retain anything else. That's how it works when written like that. There's no need to say, "You retain X and Y, but not anything else," because "You retain X and Y" means that you retain nothing else.

Shouldn't the spell RAW only change the game statistics?

Why would it be limited to statistics?

If the spell said retain only alignment and personality that would seem different. If the spell affirmatively said it changed the mind of the target that would seem different.

It doesn't need to say that extra bit since what is written means exactly that.

Again, if I say you retain C and X when I banish you to the desert island, you aren't going to assume that you also retain A, B, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, Y and Z just because I didn't mention them. You're going to know that you get the two items I said you would retain.

 

[Voadam]

Yes it does address it. It gives the non-statistic portions that are retained. If you get told what it is that you retain, you don't retain anything else. That's how it works when written like that. There's no need to say, "You retain X and Y, but not anything else," because "You retain X and Y" means that you retain nothing else.

To use your example from earlier, if you say retain your spear gun and flashlight, I don't expect you to mean therefore strip down naked.

 

[Voadam]

"Retain X and Y" is different from "Retain only X and Y"

It is dangerous and dark on the island, retain your speargun and flashlight when you come out of the ocean.

 

[Maxperson]

Here is Crawford talking about polymorph at about the 7 minute mark. At about the 8:20 mark he says, "All you retain is the core of your personality and your alignment. Everything else changes." At around the 9 and a half minute mark he does say that you will recognize friends, but that it's like being in a chariot that you know how to control(your original body), but suddenly you don't quite know how to use the controls any longer as you are now in a different body with a different brain.

So it seems that it's a combination of my interpretation and some of yours(those on the other side). You aren't free to just think and act with full memories, and have to roleplay the limited intelligence, but intent is for you to recognize friends. It's interesting that he goes out of his way to say that it's the intent to recognize your friends, probably because he realizes that as written you don't or at least it can be interpreted as you don't.

 

[Voadam]

I normally go with RAW and ignore Sage advice as it is just someone offical giving their statement and interpretation of the RAW and seems only valid to the point their argument on RAW seems persuasive, but I gave this a listen (for at least the beginning 12 minutes or so).

Driving a new chariot seems a good analogy. Same driver, different vehicle with different capabilities.

A driver switching from a formula racing car to a monster truck or ATV.

This came up in the video as a counter to the idea that if you are starving in the jungle and get turned into a panther that you would attack your friends.

As Crawford says at 10:21 the core of your being is not erased.

If you are a bard with expertise on deception who can fake people out with an insinuating look, body language, verbal misdirection, and compelling cons, once transformed into a rabbit you can still choose to try to feint or whatever, but your character is no longer good at it. The rabbit brain aspect comes up here to the extent game statistics enter the picture. Choosing to do so would still seem to be in concept the player as the character, not the player as a random beast.

A charismatic druid spy trained in deception would be better at deception as a wild shaped rabbit than the more charismatic expertise deception bard polymorphed into a rabbit (game statistics difference) but they could both choose to try to deceive enemies in situations that would be unnatural for a mundane rabbit.

 

[Voadam]

Generally D&D is set up for players to decide how to play their characters and exceptions to this are specified.

So the DMG page 5 says the basic play loop is "A player tells the DM what he or she wants to do, and the DM determines whether it is successful or not"

An exception to player agency would be something like the explicit effect of the charm person spell "The charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance." I would give players wide latitude on how they act under a charm person spell, but I would ask them to roleplay regarding the charmer as a friendly acquaintance while under the spell.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Of course, creatures with a lower intelligence cannot be polymorphed into something with a higher intelligence, but the reverse is possible.

This made me laugh. Classic AD&D. Of course, the magic system has been laid out so rationally and consistently that this must of course be true... Who would think otherwise?