D&D 5E (2014) The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Minigiant]

How about “technology” instead of “chemistry”? Does that change things?

We already do that.

And that's why D&D usually stops making sense the second you leave a tightly packed dungeon.

I mean, why isn't the plate armor wearing fighter who is a millionaire packing a firearm and bags of ammo if firearms were invented before full European style plate armor?

 

[Voadam]

Sure, but if you have things that are the same in both, they kind of need to translate the same or what you are translating changes.

One pound is the same in both 5e and Marvel. Both use the commonly understood definitions, because 5e doesn't offer up a different one. That means that something that weighs 20,000 pounds in Marvel is going to weigh 20,000 pounds in 5e. If Spiderman can lift that object in Marvel, he has to be able to lift it in 5e or he isn't really Spiderman. He's a weak knockoff.

Nonsense.

Toby McGuire Spiderman is not a knockoff Spiderman who is not really Spiderman, even though he does not invent and use mechanical web spinners. It is a slightly different portrayal of Spiderman.

How much Spiderman can lift varies in different Marvel comics, varies in portrayals of him, and is very far from the core identity of Spiderman.

Ship of Theseus his lifting capacity up or down and most people still say he is Spiderman.

 

[TwoSix]

How about “technology” instead of “chemistry”? Does that change things?

Not appreciably, no. I mean, do wheels not work? Levers? Pulleys? What’s the boundary between “technology” and the simple application of physics?

 

[Bill Zebub]

We already do that.

And that's why D&D usually stops making sense the second you leave a tightly packed dungeon.

I mean, why isn't the plate armor wearing fighter who is a millionaire packing a firearm and bags of ammo if firearms were invented before full European style plate armor?

Because “realistic” and “plausible” and “historically accurate” all mean different things.

 

[Maxperson]

Nonsense.

Toby McGuire Spiderman is not a knockoff Spiderman who is not really Spiderman, even though he does not invent and use mechanical web spinners. It is a slightly different portrayal of Spiderman.

I think all of the other Spidermen from alternate universes are knock-offs. They are all, every last one of them, non-name brand versions. Only the original is the name brand. They're just closer to the original than a D&D knock-off would be.

How much Spiderman can lift varies in different Marvel comics, varies in portrayals of him, and is very far from the core identity of Spiderman.

I've never seen him be unable to lift and throw a car with more accuracy than humans in 5e can throw an axe. Regardless, put him in D&D and his strength drops to 20. He goes from 20000(or around there depending on the Marvel writer) pounds to 600. 5e caps him at 20 strength as a human PC.

 

[James Gasik]

Because “realistic” and “plausible” and “historically accurate” all mean different things.

How is "historically accurate" not realistic or plausible?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Unless used to mean “realistic in the actual world.”

Which, until the last couple pages of this thread, is what I thought everybody understood it to mean.

We're probably talking past each other,

But I don't think "realistic in the actual world" has much objective utility either in the context of D&D. D&D doesn't take place in the actual world.

If you're in Dubai and encounter a situation that would be unrealistic to expect in Cleveland, you don't accuse Dubai of being unrealistic. You acknowledge that, in Dubai, some things work differently than they do in Cleveland.

Why should fantasy settings adhere to the expectations of somewhere they don't take place?

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think all of the other Spidermen from alternate universes are knock-offs. They are all, every last one of them, non-name brand versions. Only the original is the name brand. They're just closer to the original than a D&D knock-off would be.

I've never seen him be unable to lift and throw a car with more accuracy than humans in 5e can throw an axe. Regardless, put him in D&D and his strength drops to 20. He goes from 20000(or around there depending on the Marvel writer) pounds to 600. 5e caps him at 20 strength as a human PC.

That 20 cap is for a relatively ordinary human. Technically even a non-magical Barbarian can achieve a 24 (at level 20), so that's arguably the real strength limit for a non-super-human. But Spiderman has explicitly super-human strength, which means his strength could be as high as 30.

If he has a unique feature that allows him to exceed normal encumbrance limits for purposes of lifting, even your 20k+ criteria is achievable.

 

[Cadence]

We're probably talking past each other,

But I don't think "realistic in the actual world" has much objective utility either in the context of D&D. D&D doesn't take place in the actual world.

If you're in Dubai and encounter a situation that would be unrealistic to expect in Cleveland, you don't accuse Dubai of being unrealistic. You acknowledge that, in Dubai, some things work differently than they do in Cleveland.

Do the physics, biology, and chemistry work the same in both places, even if the engineers, doctors, and scientists are doing different things? <Insert tangent on the placebo effect and how too many people don't think about the weather until it is too late>

 

[Minigiant]

Because “realistic” and “plausible” and “historically accurate” all mean different things.

That goes back to what I said on Magic Replacing Tech.

If you start with an Earth base and rewrite history so that the only advancement are Spellcasting, Heavy Armor, and Martial Weapons.

Is it realistic for a nonmagical fighter class to exist? Plausible? Historically Accurate?

Is it realistic for orcs and hobgoblin or even human societies to not be loaded to the gills with wizards and priest? Plausible? Historically Accurate?

If the only science is Casting then the world itself is hindering the deveelopment of other sciences and every humaniod above the peasent or serf caste would be a caster or infused with magic.