D&D 4E The Dispensible 4E

[hafrogman]

I'm really not a fan of the super-broad fighter; I feel like it has stopped the class from developing a good niche in the past. I feel like one class, one idea, one execution.

There should be an archer and a swashbuckler; but they shouldn't be "fighters" unless fighter is an archtype (class?) and archer or swashbuckler is a theme.

That would be my hope. Fighter is what he does, theme is how he does it.

But in general, 4e classes were too narrow/limited for my tastes. If you want to play an archer, you get Ranger. But that comes with specific flavor and expectations that you may not want. If you want to play a swashbuckler, you get Rogue . . . but every rogue is a thief in 4e. Skills - Thievery + Others. There's no way to be a rogue who DOESN'T know how to pick locks.

 

[Shadeydm]

Healing Surges
Warlord wordy healing
Combats that drag on way beyond interest or fun and become ping ping with at wills.
(and no spontaneously changing the monsters to minions isn't a fix it just highlights the problem)
Martial dailies
The rules not informing us about the game world
Skill challenges
Boring magic items and the mile stones that power them

I don't think these things need to die a fiery death I just think they need to be stripped out of the core game to be added back in via module if such things are your cup of tea. I hope none of them are default assumptions of the game.

 

[herrozerro]

I'm running a 4E campaign and playing in another. While I am definitely no great fan of 4E, there s one thing that must be changed: healing surges.

Yuck!

I slap this guy over here and my buddy over there suddenly heals the sucking chest wound he got last round because he thinks its funny?

Really? Really Really?

This is actually an issue with your descriptions of combat not the HS mechanic.

 

[Minigiant]

1) Math based on magic items and stat boosts.

It forces DMs to hand the proper level weapon/implement/armor/cloak and forces player to only boost their primary stat.

Sure in earlier editions you wanted to boost your primary stat, but in 4E you had to. That is how the math worked.

2) 50-65% accuracy.
You miss way too much. WAY WAY WAY too much. One both sides of the DM screen. Fudging is required by DMs just to minimize missfests.

I'm running a 4E campaign and playing in another. While I am definitely no great fan of 4E, there s one thing that must be changed: healing surges.

Yuck!

I slap this guy over here and my buddy over there suddenly heals the sucking chest wound he got last round because he thinks its funny?

Really? Really Really?

That is just an issue with your description.

You don't get stabbed in the chest until you die of a stab wound to the chest or a cleric divinely heals you unconscious dying body of a stab wound.

When the warlord heals you, he is reminding you that you were not stabbed in the chest and that you should stop being a drama queen over a hard poke to the ribs.

 

[CleverNickName]

When the warlord heals you, he is reminding you that you were not stabbed in the chest and that you should stop being a drama queen over a hard poke to the ribs.

But that causes another problem. Now, a critical hit with a sword amounts to merely "a hard poke to the ribs." Either way, the willful suspension of disbelief gets stretched.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Biggest one for me is the magic items. This is one problem that started in 3E, got going like mad in 3.5, and by 4E was completely out of control. 4E artifacts are alright, but for the rest of it, there is too much of a standardization fetish, coupled with trying to make it work in the economy.

IMHO, 4E would have actually work better if magic items had been deliberately left out of all balance considerations, and then given to the DM as a both a responsibility and a tool--to balance or unbalance the game as found useful or necessary. (Want a "math fix"? Instead of a feat tax, get generous with the equipment. Problem solved, no new rules needed, and I bet the players would enjoy an equipment upgrade more than having one of their feats locked in.)

4E items aren't "robust". They are balanced, but the balance is brittle. A less detailed balance, but in a more robust frame, would lead to more balance in play--which is the only place it really matters.

The other big thing is the explanation of how the system is meant to work. This includes explicit examples, early adventures, design notes, etc. 4E did a really poor job of explaining some of its features. In some cases, it's advice actively worked against understanding. Of course, 5E will have a somewhat different design. So not all the lessons will translate there. But whatever 5E is meant to do, let us see it covered well.

 

[jshaft37]

Essentials is probably my favorite version of D&D while B/X is second.

Here's what I'd change.

Conditions should be rare but when they happen they are deadly.
Combat Advantage should be more difficult to attain but provides a larger bonus.
Remove interrupt and reactions.
Martial Powers should be granted by situations rather than per encounter or day.
Flatten the math considerably. To hit bonus should scale more than damage as well. HP needs to be reeled back in.
Combat can be done with a rough grid or without a grid at all.
Focus on adventures rather than encounters.
Make traps effective again.
A section on puzzles in the DMG.
Bring back wandering monsters (by focusing on adventures rather than encounters, as stated, as well as reducing combat length).

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Make magic items magically awesome and at the same time make them totally unnecessary.

Do some fun stuff with mundane and masterwork or high-quality items before jumping right into magic items at low-level.

Either dial back the average round-count per combat (less HP all around?) or drastically speed up each round to avoid the hour-to-two-hour combat grind.

Design a significantly better character sheet. By better I mean draw attention to the important stuff. By important stuff I mean the stuff you actually need to know right now fast during play.

 

[Daztur]

I'm not the biggest 4ed fan but the only deal breaker as far as 4ed-style stuff being included in 5ed would be the wall between crunch and fluff, the one with the tigers on top.

The other bits of 4ed that I don't like are just annoyances.

 

[CM]

Biggest issue for me I feel is magic items. There were far too many items with weak, highly situational daily powers at launch, and not enough with static properties or encounter powers. Mordenkainen's Emporium was a great sign of what Wizards learned in the interim. I do like the simplified item creation and disenchantment rules, though. Also, 4e's artifact rules are spectacular and I hope 5e's artifacts follow this template.

Action denial vs. elites and solos is pretty annoying, although it was improved somewhat by the MM3 changes to solos.

Totally unique power lists for every class were a mistake, I feel. There are far too many powers out there that are essentially identical except for class and ability score used.

Lack of options for long-term injury and poison: I would like to have seen this as a supported option for DMs.

Drastic refluffing of certain races: These were really hit-or-miss for me. Titans and fomorians? Awesome. Tieflings and succubi? Not so much. Duergar worship Asmodeus now? Uhh, what? Gnomes are more fey and alien? I can live with that. The backlash against Eladrin could have been avoided by calling them High Elves instead (with the note that they call themselves the Eladrin).