D&D 4E The Dispensible 4E

[UngeheuerLich]

Monster Levels. Makes you feel like an uderachiever, if you are only fighting lower level monsters. (Because you have no magic items or so)

Magic and nonmagical healing should be differentiated. And situations should be clear, when only the former can help.

Feats as they are right now.
I like the myth and magic wp, nwp and ct differentiation. I know, 4e will have themes as a feat delivery system and Backgrounds as a skill delivery system. I still believe, wp, nwp and ct may fit in.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Going on 4 years and and people's complaints about healing surges show they still don't understand what healing surges are.

Healing surges are NOT self-healing or non-magical healing. They are a pacing and scaling healing mechanic. They give you a scaling value to determine how much you heal from major healing effects, as well as giving you a limitation on how many times per day you can be healed.

They are completely separate from self-healing (the second wind power) or non-magical healing (the warlord class).

And this regular and complete misunderstanding is the real issue I have with the primary set of character health mechanics and I hope it gets replaced (if not with physical damage split from "hit points" then with the simple HP mechanic from earlier editions). From the name (it should have simply been left as "surges" rather than with the false baggage of "healing" in front of it) to the other mechanics surrounding it (overly-expeditious recovery primarily), I think it was the biggest issue for certain gamers to get in and enjoy all the excellent things in 4e. The ironic thing is, that 4e had a really good go of finally fulfilling the definition of hit points from previous editions. The problem is, with actual physical damage mixed in, it also carried on the confusion from prior editions rather than finally separating the two.

Surges and the mechanics surrounding them actively support a certain style of play which is perfect for a lot of gamers but would seem anathema to an almost equally sized group. Get rid of it and bring in one that supports all styles of play; if such a thing is possible.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Minigiant]

And this regular and complete misunderstanding is the real issue I have with the primary set of character health mechanics and I hope it gets replaced (if not with physical damage split from "hit points" then with the simple HP mechanic from earlier editions).

As a module, maybe.

Simple HP systems for people who say that their PCs "fell" and describe the wound if they die.

WP/VP for those who want clear mechanical pools for near misses and true hits.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

As a module, maybe.

Simple HP systems for people who say that their PCs "fell" and describe the wound if they die.

WP/VP for those who want clear mechanical pools for near misses and true hits.

That's the thing though, I don't want vitality points (VPs); I still want hit points and all they represent (while still including WPs). 4e pointed the direction how hit points could be fully utilized, but was anchored down by needing to include physical damage making the warlord "healing" thing weird unless you looked at it the right way (the dagger in chest things from an earlier post being an excellent example of how to work around it).

Anyway, I should stop now and get off my pet subject; sorry for the tangent.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Doug McCrae]

#1 problem for me is the necessity of the battlegrid. I much prefer theatre of the mind.

 

[Minigiant]

So now your character was just a whiney drama queen who blew a mere owie out of proportion, whenever he has gotten a stern talking-to by the Warlord?

But that causes another problem. Now, a critical hit with a sword amounts to merely "a hard poke to the ribs." Either way, the willful suspension of disbelief gets stretched.

That is one thing that has to leave.

Forcing one form of narratism.
Not having "Name Wounds after death" be the only supported way and allow rules for "Name Wounds as they happen" and "Name Wounds as you drop."

 

[Neonchameleon]

But that causes another problem. Now, a critical hit with a sword amounts to merely "a hard poke to the ribs." Either way, the willful suspension of disbelief gets stretched.

Welcome to hit points and D&D! Your critical hit with a sword will not take a fighter down from anything approaching full HP. Calling it a hard poke to the ribs is in game mechanical terms right.

If you want rid of this effect take scaling hit points ou and shoot them. Don't blame surges.

Now, I'm no big fan of 4e. But I came to these conclusions after my friends and I ran a 4e campaign:

Race/class dependency. No one likes being told they MUST be a gnome if they want to be an illusionist.

And I don't know who was saying that in 4e. Because it simply isn't so.

Grind: Too many hps are annoying.

Too many hp for too little monster damage. They've raised the damage.

A legion of fiddly little buffs which change by the turn.

Now this one's a good point.

An inflexible system which cannot cover a wide amount of character concepts.

Name a few such concepts please - as long as they fit the professional adventurer mould?

A lack of meaningful or interesting non-combat options.

Unless "meaningful or interesting non-combat options" is a euphemism for spells, I'm curious what 4e is missing that any other edition had.

Why is everyone in this thread that is supposed to be the opinions of 4E fans people who are no fan of 4E?

That rather defeats the point, and is a bit rude.

As someone who ACTUALLY greatly enjoys 4E:

* Feat taxes. That is not the way to fix the math.
* Too Much Freaking Wizard Stuff. Seriously. The wizard is just one class. Spread the love.
* Avoiding making monstrous humanoids.
* Not enough non-dragon beasts. If it isn't a dragon or Cthulhu it's probably a humanoid, even if the type isn't humanoid.
* Too much reliance on plus items. I can't stand +X Pants of Math.
* Not enough experimentation. There are barely an optional rules presented in 4E, but soooo many possibilities.
* Attempts to cram collectibles into the game. Fortune Cards, etc. NO. BAD.
* Creating things to fill space rather than because they needed to be created.
* Twin Strike.
* Bad editing. Since day 1 of the edition, this has been a plague.
* Trying to hard to cling to old school stuff. I got over generic old school fantasy during the 90s. It's great that the generic stuff is there, but try new things.
* Obvious armor choices. Waaay too many characters end up in hide armor.
* Too much WAR art. It looked silly in 3E and it hasn't gotten any better. I'm happy to see a few pieces of his work here and there, but I'd like to see more variety, ideally stuff that isn't Chunky Comic Book Style.
* Too little attention paid to the overworld - the dungeon is such a tiny fraction of fantasy. I want to see rules for combats where everyone is riding a horse, or a wagon, or a griffon.
* Too few environments explored. Need more pegasi and mermaids.

Agreed emphatically. And thank you for being one of the few to answer the actual topic of the OP.

More riding and environments are both emphatically wanted.

Getting all your healing surges back after an extended rest.
Treasure tied to character level.

More accurately, an extended rest being one night's sleep. Change it to a week's rest and there's no problem.

• Better Writing
• Cutting the +x from magic items. They stand much better when each item is one item.
• Ending the 'math tax' feats.
• Less wizard-centricity
• A quick combat resolution system
• More exploration rules
• Domain management
• Fewer conditions (I'd rather roll a lot of the penalties up into 'impeded' for -2 to attack rolls and 'greatly impeded' for -5, which means you don't get the control happy parties stacking blind with vicious mockery with phantom army with enfeebling strike to make the dragon attack at -11 plus the mark penalty)
• A cleanup to mark a lot of feats and powers as deprecated
• Renaming 'Healing Surges' to something like 'Resilience points'

 

[Tallifer]

I think some of the posters in this thread did not read the original post. But that is not unusual.

I do love the Fourth Edition, and I hope that as much as possible of it is included in the Fifth Edition.

I could do without a few things however. 1. Item rarity and random treasure tables from the Essentials. I like the original wish list idea, and indeed I go even further in my own games.
2. Double redundant space-wasting flavour text. Ever since Essentials, all Powers, even regular AEDU powers have two blocks of fluff. For example, in Heroes of the Feywild, the 25th level Bard Power Zeal Inspiring Tale has a normal short flavour text, "You tell a tale that fills your allies with zeal unmatched by the words of even the most skilled demagogue." But it is also prefaced with another flavour text which adds absolutely no information, just verbiage and synonyms. "Stories are meant to instill emotions in their listeners, and you know how to whip your listeners into a frenzy. You can tell stories that fill your allies with zeal, so that they seize any opening to strike at an enemy that shows any sign of weakness."

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, I'd have to say that my number one thing to eject from 4e:

Do NOT write the core books for new gamers. The 4e books present the game in a very strong fashion that really smacks of onetruewayism. There's a reason that people talk about 4e as a minis combat game - that's exactly what it reads like. FAR too much space spent on combat stuff with the stuff that's not for combat relagated to the ghetto in the back of the book.

I really do believe that if 4e had been written for current gamers it would have been much better received.

 

[seregil]

Going on 4 years and and people's complaints about healing surges show they still don't understand what healing surges are.

Healing surges are NOT self-healing or non-magical healing. They are a pacing and scaling healing mechanic. They give you a scaling value to determine how much you heal from major healing effects, as well as giving you a limitation on how many times per day you can be healed.

They are completely separate from self-healing (the second wind power) or non-magical healing (the warlord class).

Since I don't have the same opinion as you, I am misguided or misinterpreting information?

No, I understand PERFECTLY what healing surges are. They are, as you said, a mechanic. In my words, a kludge. They are a gaming fix to a gaming problem that destroys the roleplaying element of the game.

They break the disbelief, nay, they shatter it, back up and run it over again and again.

They are a mechanic that is too present. They 'ruin the mood' and need to be replaced by something that makes sense in the ROLEPLAYING world.

Roleplaying MUST come first. I want a roleplaying game with wargaming elements, NOT a wargame with roleplaying elements.

Otherwise, I'll just go play WHFB and get cool minis in NON-RANDOM packs. *shakes fists in rage*