D&D 4E The Dispensible 4E

[pemerton]

Why not change healing surges into something that more closely matches the intent? Have a healing surge be used to negate the damage in the first place!

<snip>

Warlord: I shout at the player: Step to the side, you fool!

That could be an interesting system, but it wouldn't replicate 4e - in particular, in this system there is no way for a swooning/unconcsious character to regain concsioucsness because inspired by the words/deeds/memory of the inspiring warlord.

abstract mechanics are *BAD* for a role playing game. *Concrete* rules the day, for story telling, for narration, for immersion. An abstract mechanic is a *lost* opportunity to introduce detail.

I don't think there is much evidence that this is true.

Is there less story telling, narration, immersion in a typical session of Maelstrom Storytelling or HeroWars/Quest, or even AD&D with is 1 minute rounds, compared to Chivalry & Sorcery, Rolemaster or Runequest? I don't know that there is.

 

[LostSoul]

What can your build do that this can't?

1: Disarm
2: Sunder
3: Spam trips.

You can do all of that. (Though tripping with spam is a little strange.) Isn't there a point in the PHB where it says you can do anything you think of? And in the DMG it has a section about actions the rules don't cover.

The idea that you can only do something if you have the right power is dispensable in my opinion.

 

[Hussar]

Edit: That is to say, abstract mechanics are *BAD* for a role playing game. *Concrete* rules the day, for story telling, for narration, for immersion. An abstract mechanic is a *lost* opportunity to introduce detail. Abstract is *OK* because it allows some mechanics to be simplified, but is only *OK* to a point.

This is only true if you have a onetruewayism approach to roleplaying. That the only "real" role playing requires players to only be able to manipulate the game world through their avatar. Ie. Deep immersion role playing. There are more kinds of roleplaying out there that are every bit as satisfying to other people.

IOW, not everyone has their immersion broken by taking a more authorial stance in the game, to use the Forgism. Being able to affect the game world directly without having to limit myself to whatever role the combination of mechanics and my own interpretation of those mechanics, can be greatly liberating.

For some people. For others, obviously, actor stance is the best way to go. Different strokes.

 

[Fifth Element]

-Pairing of stats for defenses. This was frustrating for me as I like to play smart characters, but Int was clearly inferior to Dex as a paired stat from a game perspective.

This is one of my favourite things about 4E. And if you like to play smart characters, shouldn't you prefer it as well? In previous editions, a high Int did nothing for your defence, you had to make that sacrifice to have a high Int. In 4E a high Int gives you a high Reflex and AC, which before you needed a high Dex for. I really don't follow your objection.

I'd say the only real issue I have with 4E is all the niggly little things to keep track of from round to round, which has been mentioned before. We played up to about 24th level in one campaign, and there were so many little bonuses and potential immediate actions that someone invariably missed something at least once per round, including me as DM. There was simply too much going on.

 

[tomBitonti]

That could be an interesting system, but it wouldn't replicate 4e - in particular, in this system there is no way for a swooning/unconscious character to regain consciousness because inspired by the words/deeds/memory of the inspiring warlord.

Well:

Player 1: 8 HP left (swooning), charged by an Orc. The player seems caught off guard (the Orc's roll to hit is high; a successful hit, unless ...)

Player 2: A Warlord, shouts (really screams) to player 1: Get your guard up, you mother loving fool!

Player 1: Spurred, raises his guard, only half-aware, just in time to parry the Orc.

There is no in-game representation of swooning, except perhaps that one is at low hit points.

Being below 0 hit points usually means being unconscious, but, there isn't a need to be that strict. Being below 0 hit points can mean being incapacitated, but there is space for a player to be semi-aware, and able to respond to shouts or to be administered to by another player.

A problem that I have with an inspiring speech working as a healing surge is that I see working better as either a morale bonus (to attack and defense), and possibly as temporary hit points. Since those work better for me as an interpretation of inspiration, the use inspiration for healing is sidelined, then cognitively excised.

I don't think there is much evidence that this is true.

Is there less story telling, narration, immersion in a typical session of Maelstrom Storytelling or HeroWars/Quest, or even AD&D with is 1 minute rounds, compared to Chivalry & Sorcery, Rolemaster or Runequest? I don't know that there is.

Compare with the new Warhammer Fantasy Role Play, which is much more concrete. There are still many abstractions (reckless/conservative stances, with a several degrees; abstract Fortune and Misfortune, from the dice), but with just a bit more interpretation built into the abstractions: Reckless really means reckless, although, without being precise.

I did add that note at the end as an edit, and am not entirely satisfied with it myself. But I do find healing surges as presented, to be unsatisfying, and a part of that relates to an inability to break out of the abstraction. Hit points are abstract. Healing surges are an uninterpreted mechanism for recovering hit points, so even more abstract. That's gotten too much for me.

TomB

 

[GreyICE]

*sigh*

I feel like there's no way that certain people here have played 4E, and it's really getting on my nerves.

Healing Surges don't let you heal. They LIMIT your healing. They are not a healing mechanic, they are an ANTI healing mechanic. They say 'no, you've taken too many hits, you've lost too much blood, you are too bruised and battered and sore to continue, no matter how much the Warlord yells or how many injections the artificer shoves up your butt or how often the Cleric begs his deity.

Anyone who plays 4E versus 3E knows this. There was no practical limit on healing for mid level or higher characters in 3E. No matter how battered, bruised, or sore they were a few wands of CLW/LV later they were ready to go, as if they'd never been hurt.

If we chose our classes right (Warblade/Swordsage/Binder/Rogue) we might never need to take an extended rest. Ever. Literally, we could go days or weeks in a dungeon without sleeping at all.

Healing Surges say 'no can do boss.'

As for warlord healing, check out Die Hard 3. Bruce Willis has lost about a zillion pints of blood, been shot, beaten, fallen, caught in explosions, and still just grits his teeth and charges onward. It's not 'you're bleeding, now you're healed' it's 'you're bleeding, and guess what, you can take it.' When you run out of healing surges, you CAN'T take it anymore, and no matter how much the warlord yells you're not getting back in the fight. They're a very easy-to-track way of saying 'you can only be healed for 2x-4x your maximum HP in any given day.'

 

[Savage Wombat]

You have to understand that when 4e-dislikers talk about "healing surges" they really mean the whole structure of 4e healing - second wind, warlords, and all.

I know they aren't technically the same thing, but that's what they mean. And I think the term "healing surges" encourages that - it sounds like a, I dunno, sudden surge of healing. As opposed to a functional limit on how much you can be healed.

But on that subject we've had about twenty-seven near-identical threads, so.

 

[Saagael]

*sigh*

I feel like there's no way that certain people here have played 4E, and it's really getting on my nerves.

Healing Surges don't let you heal. They LIMIT your healing. They are not a healing mechanic, they are an ANTI healing mechanic. They say 'no, you've taken too many hits, you've lost too much blood, you are too bruised and battered and sore to continue, no matter how much the Warlord yells or how many injections the artificer shoves up your butt or how often the Cleric begs his deity.

Anyone who plays 4E versus 3E knows this. There was no practical limit on healing for mid level or higher characters in 3E. No matter how battered, bruised, or sore they were a few wands of CLW/LV later they were ready to go, as if they'd never been hurt.

If we chose our classes right (Warblade/Swordsage/Binder/Rogue) we might never need to take an extended rest. Ever. Literally, we could go days or weeks in a dungeon without sleeping at all.

Healing Surges say 'no can do boss.'

As for warlord healing, check out Die Hard 3. Bruce Willis has lost about a zillion pints of blood, been shot, beaten, fallen, caught in explosions, and still just grits his teeth and charges onward. It's not 'you're bleeding, now you're healed' it's 'you're bleeding, and guess what, you can take it.' When you run out of healing surges, you CAN'T take it anymore, and no matter how much the warlord yells you're not getting back in the fight. They're a very easy-to-track way of saying 'you can only be healed for 2x-4x your maximum HP in any given day.'

The warlord in my group's party LOVES that he can inspire and push the other PCs to move on despite being bloodied, and describes it as such. Half the time he'll come up with sayings and speeches to get more in-character. I would really hate to take that kind of in-world, engaging play away from that player if 5e didn't have some kind of non-magical, warlord-esque healing.

 

[GreyICE]

Yeah, I know. They need a better name, something that shows that they're a functional LIMITATION on healing, not an enabler of healing.

When you get hit with Cure Light Wounds in 3.X it's uncapped. You can get hit again and again.

When you get hit in 4E, it's capped. You can only get a number equal to your HS total.

Of course in-combat healing was far more viable in 4E, thanks to the lack of rocket tag (attacks that took a PC from full to zero were rare at all levels, rather than being common at all levels) and minor action healing, and if they want to attack anything, they should attack those. They're really asking for the return of rocket tag combat and full action healing, since if you remove healing surges and leave in minor action healing and multi-round combats you've just created an eternal grind of doom.

 

[WOLead]

I feel like there's no way that certain people here have played 4E, and it's really getting on my nerves.

Ditto. I keep getting the feeling that when the opposing-view talks about it, they think Full HP = Completely Healed and Unscathed, despite having 0 Healing Surges left (whether thats true or not). Something that has never occurred in my mind, as I see the same as someone on their last legs, trembling slightly, bruised, yet smiling and willing through sheer effort of will ignoring the pain. Just you know they can't ignore anymore, at least until they get some sleep.

I've pointed out my view on Healing Surges and HP in 4e before, though I don't think I've ever gotten too much of a response.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-ho...-healing-surges-read-first-8.html#post5899002

4e PCs having MUCH more health then in previous editions? Yeah, I can see that.
Magical Healing being more common? Not from my view on things, as I only see Surgeless Healing in 4e as magical healing. Which is really rare, tbh.
Full Rests giving back too much Health? I can see that as well, possibly having a ruling such as PCs only get back up to 1/2 their Max surges each Extended rest and still need to spend said surges to recover any HP they were missing when they fell asleep would fit for the older editions natural healing (While avoiding the "Why do Wizards and Rogues heal faster then Barbarians and Fighters?" bit). Just remember, non-surge healing is extremely rare in 4e, so no one can just pull out a CLW Wand and cap off their wounds in the morning in this situation (or ignore the need for natural healing/extended rests completely).