The Divine, the Deities and the Solars

[pavieira]

I was just writing a review of "The Devine & the Defeated" and something came up that's quite strange.

The Scarred Land's deities are all able to deliver several attacks each rond. I believe it's because they're all outsiders with dozens os hit dice, so their base attack bonus are huge.

At first I tought this was a huge bend into the d20 system, something that unbalanced the game.

I went on and checked the new Deities and Demigods, and every deity over there could only deliver 4 attacks each round, as the maximum number of attacks on the PH. Even mighty Thor could only attack 4 times with Mjolnir and his 92 strenght score.

But when I looked into the MM, the Solar, a puny 22HD outsider is able to attack 5 times every round without the aid of any magical haste or extra-partial action. I looked into the MM errata, but there's nothing to emmend this.

So it seems that the Solar is able to do something that even the mightiest god, the strongest one is not capable. A hasted Solar can attack 6 times each round with his greatsword.

What do you think of this? Do you think the Solar need a revision now that the rules for deities and epic-level characters are surfacing?

 

[Crothian]

No, leave the solar powerful. The last ack they have isn't that great anyway. If you really care then I suggest e-mailing the Sage.

 

[kreynolds]

I was just writing a review of "The Devine & the Defeated" and something came up that's quite strange.

The Scarred Land's deities are all able to deliver several attacks each rond. I believe it's because they're all outsiders with dozens os hit dice, so their base attack bonus are huge.

At first I tought this was a huge bend into the d20 system, something that unbalanced the game.

I went on and checked the new Deities and Demigods, and every deity over there could only deliver 4 attacks each round, as the maximum number of attacks on the PH. Even mighty Thor could only attack 4 times with Mjolnir and his 92 strenght score.

But when I looked into the MM, the Solar, a puny 22HD outsider is able to attack 5 times every round without the aid of any magical haste or extra-partial action. I looked into the MM errata, but there's nothing to emmend this.

So it seems that the Solar is able to do something that even the mightiest god, the strongest one is not capable. A hasted Solar can attack 6 times each round with his greatsword.

What do you think of this? Do you think the Solar need a revision now that the rules for deities and epic-level characters are surfacing?

I drop the Solar's last attack, as there is no explanation for this mysterious and impossible 5th attack. Besides, dropping it doesn't affect their power that much anyway.

As far as Divine & Defeated, well, that book is sloppy as hell. Relics & Rituals was even worse. I was sorely disappointed that the folks who put the later book together didn't even bother pricing their items. Both of these books have good ideas in them, but there's no way I'd ever pay for them.

 

[Crothian]

Re: Re: The Divine, the Deities and the Solars

As far as Divine & Defeated, well, that book is sloppy as hell. Relics & Rituals was even worse. I was sorely disappointed that the folks who put the later book together didn't even bother pricing their items. Both of these books have good ideas in them, but there's no way I'd ever pay for them.

Well, they do seem to rush some products to beat Wizards. In today's market would any one really buy Creature Collection 1? THat was the sloppiest rules book I've ever seen. But I do get a lot of use out of their ideas. I'm not worried as much with things rules wise. THat's an easy fix. It's ideas that I need. Sure, I can come up with a bunch of ideas on my own (and have) it's difficult and time consuming. The reason for expansion books is to save time by having someone else do the work for you.

 

[gfunk]

High level monks are another exception to the 4 attacks/full round action rule. Unarmed, they get 5 attacks.

 

[Jeremy]

The idea to keep itinerative base attack multiple attacks down to 4 (5 for monks, hey ya gotta give them something!) came around in the Return to the Temple of Elemental evil I think, which was long after the Monster Manual. Since then it has been the rule, but they never went back and applied it to creatures made before.

Just drop off the last attack for the Solar and it'll all work out.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: Re: The Divine, the Deities and the Solars

Well, they do seem to rush some products to beat Wizards. In today's market would any one really buy Creature Collection 1? THat was the sloppiest rules book I've ever seen. But I do get a lot of use out of their ideas. I'm not worried as much with things rules wise. THat's an easy fix. It's ideas that I need. Sure, I can come up with a bunch of ideas on my own (and have) it's difficult and time consuming. The reason for expansion books is to save time by having someone else do the work for you.

The spells in Relics & Rituals are a terrific source for ideas, I'll give ya' that. But when I have to do the work that they didn't do, well, no money from me.

 

[Chris Nagle]

BAB is the key

Your BAB is the key to this.

The MAX BAB in the PHB is +20.
To get Multiple attacks it's -5 to each attack.


For example Fighter
6th +6/+1
11th +11/+6/+1
16th +16/+11/+6/+1
20th +20/+15/+10/+5

At the moment we can't get to 21st level with a BAB bonus.
(Waiting for Epic Level Handbook)

If they went to 21st level it would be +21/+16/+11/+6/+1

As the monk has only -3 for Unarmed attack bonis the Monk gets 5 attacks at 20th Level.

+15/+12/+9/+6/+3

And if they get to the next level for BAB it would be

+16/+13/+10/+7/+4/+1

6 attacks.



So the conculsion would be if the Monster/God had a big enough BAB they would get more attacks.

To work backwards for the Solar it has the following 5 attacks with a +5 dancing, vorpal greatsword +35/+30/+25/+20/15 melee

The bonus it has from the sword is +5 then with strength of 28 it's +9 total of +14.

So you take the +14 away from the attacks gives you this as it's BAB +21/+16/+11/+6/+1.

So if my Demi-God had a BAB of +32 and Strength of 50 bonus +20 I would have the following attacks
+32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 for BAB then add the +20 for strength =
+52/+47/+42/+37/+32/+27/+22

Any comments?

 

[dcollins]

Re: BAB is the key

Your BAB is the key to this....

So if my Demi-God had a BAB of +32 and Strength of 50 bonus +20 I would have the following attacks +32/+27/+22/+17/+12/+7/+2 for BAB...

Any comments?

I think you're missing the initial poster's observation that, in fact, the recently released Deities & Demigods shows all gods, even with BABs as high as your example, ending up with only 4 attacks.

 

[ruleslawyer]

More to the point, DDG explicitly states that deities cannot have more than four attacks due to BAB. See DDG, p.26 (sidebar):

No deity can have more than four attacks derived strictly from its base attack bonus, so a deity with a base attack bonus of +40 gets additional attacks at +35, +30, and +25.