The DM Giveth, so the DM Taketh Away?

[Kid Socrates]

While reading Crothian's thread/poll about giving his second level characters 30,000 gp, I saw a fair amount of replies from people stating that then their players would find themselves the targets of all the bandits and thieves in the area, and they they'd be lucky to get back to town to spend it, or things of that nature.

Now I know the importance of keeping things seeming realistic, so forth, so on, but this almost seems cruel -- not needlessly cruel, but maybe a little too rough. I've done battles/scenarios where items get lost/taken away, and it adds motivation for the character to get it back, but giving players something with the sole intention of taking it all back through means that they can't control seems a little rough, to me.

Is this something DMs often do? What's the benefit to it? Trying my best not to sound judgmental -- I just don't see the point in it.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Is this something DMs often do? What's the benefit to it? Trying my best not to sound judgmental -- I just don't see the point in it.

Well, there is a point in giving something to a player, having the player become attached to it, and then having your bad guys target it. The player becomes emotionally involved in defending the thing.

But to do it often, or right after you just gave it to the player seems extreeme.

 

[The_Gneech]

Well, a few years ago, I had a rakshasa capture and replace an NPC in the party as they were looting an ancient ruin filled with all sorts of goodies. He'd go into the dungeon with them by day, and his henchmen would carry off the loot by night.

They were roughly 4th-5th level when they got wise to the situation, and went to confront him in his lair. The rakshasa offered them a deal: they could have the NPC back if they'd just walk away and leave him with the loot. It was a tough encounter, but they had a fighting chance, and I assumed that they'd attack to get all the treasure they'd been collecting back. (Something along the lines of 5,000 gp worth, which was a lot of money to them at the time.)

Instead, they looked at the rakshasa and his henchmen, collected the NPC, and stalked off, grumbling. I must admit, I was baffled ... and I felt bad about having soured their adventuring success by "stealing" it that way. Ever since then, the party has been blasé about loot to the point of not even looking for treasure when an encounter is complete ... they often just move on to the next room. I'm worried that as time goes on, they won't have the necessary gear to survive higher-level fights ... but I can't exactly wave "Treasure here! Nice, juicy loot!" signs all over the place.

-The Gneech

 

[Odhanan]

Now I know the importance of keeping things seeming realistic, so forth, so on, but this almost seems cruel -- not needlessly cruel, but maybe a little too rough.

I'm with you pal. I try to avoid giving cool stuff to the PCs just to take it away a moment later. Sometimes it's justified, and sometimes it's just mean. If you don't want to bitch at the PCs arsenal, don't give them stuff you can't handle, and they've got to be aware of your opinions on the matter.

 

[KRT]

Instead, they looked at the rakshasa and his henchmen, collected the NPC, and stalked off, grumbling. I must admit, I was baffled ... and I felt bad about having soured their adventuring success by "stealing" it that way. Ever since then, the party has been blasé about loot to the point of not even looking for treasure when an encounter is complete ... they often just move on to the next room. I'm worried that as time goes on, they won't have the necessary gear to survive higher-level fights ... but I can't exactly wave "Treasure here! Nice, juicy loot!" signs all over the place.
-The Gneech

Odd way for the party to react. I would have suggested that as DM you introduce some NPC help later (i.e another group that got stiffed by the same Rakshasa). Propose that the 2 groups work together to take this guy out. The rewards would likely be more than just what they lost. This Rakshasa probably has done it many times. ANyway the point is that what the DM offers to the players are challenges not obstacle or roadblocks. I have given my players heaps of gold before (1 million gold pieces - with pinky finger in corner of mouth) and the challenge was to see how much of it they could get back to a secure location. The player knew up front that they were likely to lose a lot of it. One of the NPCs even made one of the players a side bet (the PC thought very little of it would get back and the NPC figured on at least 20%) the player was quite happy he lost the bet in the end as they got over 30% of it back.

 

[MacMathan]

I wouldn't just take it away unavoidably.

It would be entirely based on the PCs actions after they got it and how discrete they were about carrying that sort of wealth at such a low level.

I wouldn't give it to them unless it had a point and I wouldn't try to take it away unless it made the game more interesting also.

 

[Kid Socrates]

I have given my players heaps of gold before (1 million gold pieces - with pinky finger in corner of mouth) and the challenge was to see how much of it they could get back to a secure location. The player knew up front that they were likely to lose a lot of it. One of the NPCs even made one of the players a side bet (the PC thought very little of it would get back and the NPC figured on at least 20%) the player was quite happy he lost the bet in the end as they got over 30% of it back.

Oh, yeah, with it being a spelled-out challenge, or at least something the player knows, I wouldn't find any problem with that at all. I think that's a great adventure idea, trying to defend a wagon from raiding bandits as it goes through ambush-heavy terrain.

 

[Umbran]

Is this something DMs often do? What's the benefit to it? Trying my best not to sound judgmental -- I just don't see the point in it.

Well, that seemed to me to be much of the point - "If you do X, then Y is a natural consequence, and that consequence isn't pretty. So, I'd probably not do X."

There are times when this all works though - McGuffins are a tried and true dramatic device, after all.

 

[Orius]

You know the title of the topic doesn't really help deal with some of the god complexes I come under when I DM....

Anyway, moving onto more serious on-topic matters:

I'm with you pal. I try to avoid giving cool stuff to the PCs just to take it away a moment later. Sometimes it's justified, and sometimes it's just mean. If you don't want to bitch at the PCs arsenal, don't give them stuff you can't handle, and they've got to be aware of your opinions on the matter.

I totally agree. The DM is the one who decides what kind of loot the PCs find, and if they get too much, it's his fault for putting it there in the first place. It's one thing when a novice DM throws too much into a campaign; that happens, and the DM learns from it. But an experienced DM should have a feel for how much gold and magic his campaign can handle before it explodes.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I just noticed that I havn't had anyone attempt to steal the PCs' stuff in years, beyond the bandit in the woods.

Odd way for the party to react.

I disagree. A 4-5th level party against a rakshasa, who is apparently very sure of himself, and a henchman? Exit stage left. Like the time my PCs met a lich, who just waved them away because he couldn't be bothered. Not gonna try their luck with that!