D&D General The DM is Not a Player; and Hot Topic is Not Punk Rock

TheSword

Legend
I was specifically talking about paid DMs.
I've never been paid to DM, and I never paid anyone to DM for me, but if I ever happened to pay a talented DM to run a game for me, my expectations would be a lot different than if one my childhood buddied did it for free, instead.

I would expect a paid DM to deliver a good, satisfying show and a fun experience for us, the clients. I would not expect them to "play" and have fun.
I find this whole argument bemusing, but I would point out that many people get paid to work and have fun doing some or all of it. In a lot of cases it makes them better at their job... teachers, trainers, coaches, managers, actors, scientists.
 

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Yeah, sure. Steve Jackson would be the prime example — GURPS isn't my cup of tea, but the old man and co know, well, more like knew what they were doing.

Can't say the same about Raggi or that LL dude.
The really interesting part I find is that Gygax was a poor designer (as the games he designed himself, like Mythus: Lejendary Journeys, and Cyborg Commando demonstrate) but was a superb developer on D&D based on Arneson's basic design.
 

Olrox17

Hero
I find this whole argument bemusing, but I would point out that many people get paid to work and have fun doing some or all of it. In a lot of cases it makes them better at their job... teachers, trainers, coaches, managers, actors, scientists.
Err, ok? If a person I hire to do a job has fun doing that job, great, but what I care about the most is getting my money's worth. Again though, we are wasting time debating valueless semantics.
 

TheSword

Legend
Err, ok? If a person I hire to do a job has fun doing that job, great, but what I care about the most is getting my money's worth. Again though, we are wasting time debating valueless semantics.
This isn’t semantics, it’s your expectation that a paid DM wouldn’t have fun. That isn’t a question of meaning thats just an odd opinion about having fun at work. I mean, unless you’re paying them $10k a session in which case I’d do it, even if I hated D&D with a passion.

Would you not expect someone who is passionate and enjoys the process of DMing?

Some jobs you do for the money, some you do for love because the money is a pittance. I suspect DMing is very much the latter unless you’re famous.
 
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Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
This isn’t semantics, it’s your expectation that a paid DM wouldn’t have fun. That isn’t a question of meaning thats just an odd opinion about having fun at work. I mean, unless you’re paying them $10k a session in which case I’d do it, even if I hated D&D with a passion.

?

A lot of people would take $10/hr to DM, even if they derived no joy from it.

It's called work, and not "happy fun time" because you get paid. If you happen to really enjoy it, that's great. But I don't think that many wage slaves toiling (a synonym for work) in the service industry are sympathetic to the idea that work is, or should be, fun.
 

TheSword

Legend
?

A lot of people would take $10/hr to DM, even if they derived no joy from it.

It's called work, and not "happy fun time" because you get paid. If you happen to really enjoy it, that's great. But I don't think that many wage slaves toiling (a synonym for work) in the service industry are sympathetic to the idea that work is, or should be, fun.
Running a game of D&D is not working cleaning shifts at the local motel. I’m very surprised that two people now would seem expect a DM not to have fun in a game if they were being paid to do it?

Do you appreciate that you are more likely to be good at a job if you enjoy it? Or that for creative jobs this is even more important. You have to at least enjoy it in part.

Let be honest most people capable of getting a $10ph paid gig as a DM can probably get considerably more by doing something else. I’m surprised that you think a paid DM would do it because they’re desperate for cash rather than they passionately enjoy delivering great D&D sessions to people.
 



Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Running a game of D&D is not working cleaning shifts at the local motel. I’m very surprised that two people now would seem expect a DM not to have fun in a game if they were being paid to do it?

Do you appreciate that you are more likely to be good at a job if you enjoy it? Or that for creative jobs this is even more important. You have to at least enjoy it in part.

Let be honest most people capable of getting a $10ph paid gig as a DM can probably get considerably more down by something else. I’m surprised that you think a paid DM would do it because they’re desperate for cash rather than they passionately enjoy delivering great D&D sessions to people.

First, let me say that I think that this is a bizarre and unnecessary distraction. This isn't particularly relevant or germane to the topic of the thread, other than to acknowledge that there is a growing number of DMs who get paid for their work. That aside ...

I disagree with pretty much every thing you have written, because I disagree with the assumptions that go into it. The reason why I disagree (and strenuously) is because this rhetoric often unknowingly devalues labor. I don't think you mean to do it, and it comes from a good spot, but it nonetheless does so.

Look at the way you start by classifying different types of work. Running a D&D game (a service) "is not working cleaning shifts at the local motel." ... and so? It's also not slinging french fries, or working in a mine, or being a mime, or working as a rock star, or driving an uber. But you know what it is?

It's work. It's something that you are doing, that you are being paid to do, because if you weren't getting paid to do it ... you would be doing something else. And while some jobs might be more physically taxing (working in a mine, waiter at a busy restaurant) and others more mentally taxing (DMing, designing logos) and others might be ... well, just taxing (toll booth operator) you are being paid for you labor.

And to denigrate the work that people do is far too common, especially in the creative fields. "Oh, we don't need to worry about paying that graphic designer what he wants, after all, he's just an artist and I'm sure he just loves what he is doing, and he's probably middle class and not desperate for cash."

If someone is paid for their work, then it's work. Period. I respect that. To the extent that I am being overly strenuous in stating this, it's because this is a point that I feel very strongly about. People deserve to be paid for their labor, without others saying, "Oh, don't worry, it's just 'fun' for them."
 

Olrox17

Hero
Running a game of D&D is not working cleaning shifts at the local motel. I’m very surprised that two people now would seem expect a DM not to have fun in a game if they were being paid to do it?

Do you appreciate that you are more likely to be good at a job if you enjoy it? Or that for creative jobs this is even more important. You have to at least enjoy it in part.

Let be honest most people capable of getting a $10ph paid gig as a DM can probably get considerably more by doing something else. I’m surprised that you think a paid DM would do it because they’re desperate for cash rather than they passionately enjoy delivering great D&D sessions to people.
Getting paid to do something changes expectations. I don't get paid to DM, so I know that I don't have to always be at the top of my game, I know I can skimp on prep if I want and maybe run a lazy session if I feel like it, I know that sometimes I can do stuff that is fun for me and not as much fun for the players.

If I was getting paid to DM, I would feel much more pressure to deliver a top-notch product, and I would prioritize the group's fun over mine every single time. Heck, I would not think about my own fun at all! Work is work.

But yes, this tangent has probably been going on unnecessarily long.
 

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