D&D 5E The Door, Player Expectations, and why 5e can't unify the fanbase.

[Tony Vargas]

How does a fighter match...

Maybe not the fighter, specifically, since you're mixing a lot of spells from different casters, but some martial class could have...

Magic Missile (W1): A auto-hit ranged attack

Reaper - comparable auto damage on a melee attack. (Fighters being rather melee oriented). A ranger might have a comparable ranged ability. A 'sure shot' that does small but guaranteed damage.

Sleep (W1): Slows/Disables a group of weak foes

An intimidate-based, limited-use power could come up with comparable, though not similar results - perhaps something like shaken or weakened instead of slowed, and running away or surrendering instead of falling asleep.

Cure Light Wounds (C1): Restore HP to self/ally

The Warlord's Inspiring Word.

Knock (W2): Automatically open one locked door

A limitted-use STR 'stunt,' to shatter the door, perhaps? For a Rogue, a thievery skill-power that gives a re-roll or large bonus after the fact, maybe.

Invisibility (W2): Wander around stealthily until you attack

More a rogue thing. Could be a class feature or a stealth skill-power.

Fireball (W3): Large damage to all foes in a radius

The 3.x Whirlwind Attacks, with a reach weapon, but limitted use to balance the large area and damage.

Fly (W3): Move around off the ground

Some increadible anime-esque leaping and climbing ability.

Invisibility Purge (C3): See the invisible around you[/qoute]Blindfighting training.

Stoneskin (W4): Melee attacks do not harm you/do less damage

An attribute mythical Berserkers and martial artists often possessed, so pretty reasonable as some limitted-use ability, perhaps based on CON/Endurance check?

Neutralize Poison (C4): Purge poison from a person

Something heal checks should cover, anyway. A mythic fighter might be able to shrug off the effects of any poison via tremendous physical vitality and will, but that'd be for himself, not others.

Teleport (W5): Go Anywhere, Instantly, with a chance of mess up.

Short of a really mythic Harruman style leap, I can't think of anything.

Raise Dead (C5): Bring someone to life.

Fight your way into the underworld and rescue them.

 

[Remathilis]

Fight your way into the underworld and rescue them.

That's one helluva class ability!

 

[Underman]

The more you get away from hard facts, the less reliable Wikipedia becomes. If you want to make an argument, we can discuss it--perhaps in a branched topic if it drifts far afield. But I'm not going to get into a "cite authority" discussion. I took C.S. Lewis's advice. When I wanted to know more about myths, I didn't start reading what English departments had to say about myths--or to be fair, what he had to say about them. I went and read them for their own sakes.

I wasn't citing authority. I was looking for other ways to better articulate (obviously it failed, oh well) what was already intuitive to me -- that myths are irrational (or pre-rational if you like) and that modern fantasy (including LoTR and D&D genre) are -- I won't say "rational" because fantasy isn't rational, but at least pseudo-rational for our modern world moreso than myths -- thus the whole "fish out of water" about transplanting myths into D&D genre.

I think what bugs me more is not so much the transplanting of myths into D&D, because that's just fine if it makes for more compelling (and plausible enough) stories. What bugs me is what I surmise is the goal of cherry-picking and choosing mythical elements that make my fighter more mechanically powerful while ignoring the inconveniently accompanying mythical context, such as talking animals or whatever that don't jive with the D&D genre, or complaining about medusa's stare that turns the fighter permanently into stone even if that's very compelling and just as integral to the mythology as the inspirational mythic elements that enable to the fighter to be powerful.

And even that would be fine for me, if an attempt at suspension of disbelief was made for mythical fighter abilities, but then insisting "we don't need an explanation" just because is what I surmise is really saying "I don't care, I just want my fighter to be more mechanically powerful" or "I don't want to offer an explanation because maybe if I do you'll poke holes in my story and then I won't be able to have my uber-powerful fighter" while emphatically insisting on a non-magical mystical fighter for some reason.

And comparing apples to oranges like: Giants in D&D are impossible yet mundane. Fighters are in D&D. Therefore fighters in D&D are impossible yet mundane and can chop mountains.

That's just what I surmised anyway based on the info I read.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Thought of another one -- swim in rough water wearing heavy armor. I just read last night that a Polish knight was one of the few knight survivors of the battle of Nicopolis (very late 14th century, or thereabouts), who got away by swimming across the Danube. All the other knights that tried it reportedly drowned or got killed from the Turks' archery. It's implied that the water wasn't that rough, and maybe this didn't really happen, but there are enough reports of similar feats either achieved or close to think that this is at least on the upper end of "mundane".

I don't remember exactly the details of Troilus's more mythic swim, but I believe it was in the ocean or at least in some tides. In any event, at some point swimming in heavy armor and/or rescuing other people while swimming becomes mythic.

Edit: Also from the Corwin example, better natural healing abilities can turn into mythic. Corwin has outright but slow regeneration. But you don't have to go that far, at least not until the upper range. (Your brain damage correcting itself is more in 500 foot leap territory.) Merely having proportional healing for all characters is a subtle form of mythic, in that the fighter is taking a lot of damage but effectively heals faster too. You can't keep him down for long. A more overt mythic slant on that would be another boost to make the fighter heal even faster than proportionally.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I think what bugs me more is not so much the transplanting of myths into D&D, because that's just fine if it makes for more compelling (and plausible enough) stories. What bugs me is what I surmise is the goal of cherry-picking and choosing mythical elements that make my fighter more mechanically powerful while ignoring the inconveniently accompanying mythical context, such as talking animals or whatever that don't jive with the D&D genre, or complaining about medusa's stare that turns the fighter permanently into stone even that's very compelling and just as integral to the mythology as the inspirational elements that enable to the fighter to be powerful.

Sure. But if a god gives you a magic shield so that you can handle the medusa, then getting turned into stone isn't so out of place. High risk, high reward. That's pretty much mythic.

That's why I said earlier that the mythic power of equipment wasn't in being able to use magic items but in having the powerful ones when you need it. It's not mythical to wield a sword, not even Excalibur, necessarily. If the Lady of the Lake gives you Excalibur and you lose it only in your dying minutes so that she can come take you away, where you rest in anticipating of returning in some day of need--that's mythic.

I'll grant that there's a fine line here between the warrior having mythic abilities versus telling a mythic story with an accomplished but mundane warrior who has mythic help. When translating from literature to roleplaying game, I don't think the line is in the exact same location.

 

[Fifth Element]

What bugs me is what I surmise is the goal of cherry-picking and choosing mythical elements that make my fighter more mechanically powerful while ignoring the inconveniently accompanying mythical context, such as talking animals or whatever that don't jive with the D&D genre, or complaining about medusa's stare that turns the fighter permanently into stone even if that's very compelling and just as integral to the mythology as the inspirational mythic elements that enable to the fighter to be powerful.

Talking animals.

Your comment about the medusa is a common misrepresentation of that argument, but generally speaking the actual argument is about the specific mechanics, not the concept.

And comparing apples to oranges like: Giants in D&D are impossible yet mundane. Fighters are in D&D. Therefore fighters in D&D are impossible yet mundane.

No, it's more like "If fighters cannot be impossible then why is it okay for other non-magical things, like giants, to be impossible?"

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not specifically, but you prove my point.

A dozen pages back, I listed a bunch of things HL fighters should be doing. One of them was a auto-kill strike. However, I was told that wasn't powerful enough to keep up with the Merlins, so he should be able to do such things at like, 5th level.

So lets list a BUNCH of spell abilities and decide what the fighter should be doing to keep up with them. For fun, we'll toss in a few cleric spells as well, since a fighter should balance against ALL classes, not just the wizard (and besides, a cleric has good armor, hp and weapons so he's already got a foot up on fighters.) He doesn't need to do these exact things (aka a fighter sleep manuever) but he should be able do something equally as exciting, both in and out of combat.

How does a fighter match...

Magic Missile (W1): A auto-hit ranged attack
Sleep (W1): Slows/Disables a group of weak foes
Cure Light Wounds (C1): Restore HP to self/ally
Knock (W2): Automatically open one locked door
Invisibility (W2): Wander around stealthily until you attack
Fireball (W3): Large damage to all foes in a radius
Fly (W3): Move around off the ground
Invisibility Purge (C3): See the invisible around you
Stoneskin (W4): Melee attacks do not harm you/do less damage
Neutralize Poison (C4): Purge poison from a person
Teleport (W5): Go Anywhere, Instantly, with a chance of mess up.
Raise Dead (C5): Bring someone to life.

What's mythically on par with these abilities?

That's an interesting list. One possible issue could be that you are setting a very specific power level for these spells. One may possible be able to weaken some spells (Teleport could work more like Linked Portal in 4E, for example).

The follwing assumes that the Fighter cannot use these powers any more often than a Wizard could, on average.

• Magic Missile: I think the Reaper Theme covers this already mostly, not sure if it's strictly melee or can be used with melee or ranged, but the idea is there.
• Sleep: Some type of whirlwind maneuver that knocks anyone around the Fighter prone.
• Cure Light Wounds: Something like the Warlord's healing. For verisimilitituduesegsdfsdkfeifgdjfg it could give temporary hit points but to compensate a small bonus to damage while the hit points are still there.
• Knock: A powerful physical blow that simply destroys the door. Not subtle at all, of course, but maybe it also has a combat application (throw someone back and to the ground, good damage)
• Invisibility: The Fighter's stick doesn't tend to be stealth, so I'd go with something different - Blind Fighting, improved initiative, does not grant advantage from flanking.
• Fireball: The Fighter moves and attacks anyone that he moves adjacent to.
• Fly: An ability to use ranged weapons at extreme range with good precision for a limited time. ALso an excellent ability to climb/jump/swim.
• Invisibility Purge: The Fighter uses his Blind Fighting ability to direct his allies in combat, allowing them to lessen the blind fighting penalties. And he grants his allies a bonus to initiative and they can't be flanked either.
• Stoneskin: The Fighter enters a type of rage, gaining him temporary hit points. While the hit point last, he may get some attack/damage bonuses.
• Neutralize Poison: The Fighter simply ignores one failed save to a poison, spell or whatever. Since he can't use it on someone else, he proves instead what a badass he is and gets temporary hit points and a short-term damage buff.
• Teleport: This is a hard one. The utility of teleport is really incredible, and coming up with something that still seems "mythical enough" may be difficult. Possibilities could be something like some kind of Shadow Walk ability. We can go an alternate route and say this is a unique Wizard shtick - rapid mass travel - and instead look for some mythical cool fighter ability that will be his stick. Maybe he's capable to take an army (even if they are only peasants) and let them fight against a much tougher or numerous foe. Or, closer to what Teleport can do - he can organize the city watch/thief guilds to find anything or anyone in the city.
• Raise Dead: This is another hard one. Raising people may be an acceptable Cleric only thing. In that case, this would need to be matched by some Fighter specialty. The army organization thing was already mentioned, but we'd probably need more alternatives.How about training a single individual to a much higher skill level in combat within a few hours? It could be a cohort, it could even be another player (imagine the Fighter teaching the Wizard to fight almost as well as the fighter can. Of course, not a particular good use, since the Wizard is busy slinging spells and doesn't have time for combat). The ability may hinge on the fighter giving constant guidance in battle, so he cannot create an army of level 9 fighters within a year, but maybe after some time, he could dismiss a cohort and he'd be able to retain some of the abilities.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Also against talking animals, distaste for "furries". I'm not saying it's a good reason or not, just that where "talking animals" are concerned, preferences are skewed by all kinds of reactions to the source material.

I heard a player at another table once, in all seriousness, say that talking animals weren't acceptable to him because he wasn't playing (colorful language omitted) "Watership Down." I gathered that if you had a talking animal in your game all he could see was the pictures from a book he had liked as a child. He'd have died of shock in our games.

 

[Underman]

No, it's more like "If fighters cannot be impossible then why is it okay for other non-magical things, like giants, to be impossible?"

Giants are impossively massive because couldn't absorb enough oxygen to survive.

Well, there is no oxygen in most fantasy worlds, including standard D&D. No nitrogen. Just the Element Air. (Dinosaurs could grow to gigantic sizes because the air was so oxygen-rich during that era; the Element Air is similarly different in properties.) The Element Air supports all living creates of all sizes.

Done. Giants are not impossible after all. Fighters mundanely chopping mountains can still be impossible.

Scientifically, dragons would be too massive to fly. We can say that all creatures with wings can mundanely have lift in Element Air.

Done. Dragon flight is not impossible after all. Fighters without wings mundanely leaping 500ft into the air can still be impossible.

But really, who gives a crap? The myths of giants come from an era where nobody knew about oxygen much less the relationship between oxygen density and biology. Centuries ago, people didn't know about aerodynamics and gravity; they thought that anything that has big and strong enough wings can fly.

As a child growing up on fantasy stories, questions about oxygen and gravity was not something I ever cared about in relation to monster size and dragon flight. So suspension of disbelief was not explicitly required.

Sometimes suspension of disbelief works by giving you an answer upfront, sometimes it works by leaving a door open to find a plausible answer if you're curious enough to look for it.

Let's say that I became intensely curious and demanded an explanation. Well, the history of myth and fantasy and D&D's adoption of pseudo-medieval fantasy elemental laws happens to negate my concerns about oxygen and monster size.

It's intuitive to me that the fighter with unexplained martial powers faces a completely different challenge in terms of suspension of disbelief. Asking why dragons fly isn't a concern for me. Asking why a fighter PC (that I have to roleplay or share a story with) has the courage and will to leap 500 ft once a day but doesn't have the courage and will to do something equally impressive does have that problem.

It's like a sort of Schroedinger's Box (or insert better term) where the abilities only work in the fiction as expressed mechanically if you don't ask why BUT if you do ask why the resulting feedback loop from the fiction to the mechanics would alter the mechanics.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Yeah, Amber shadow walking is functionally teleport. It's merely got a ton of drawbacks on it normally. If you walk the pattern again (with its own dangers), then you get to "teleport" in the D&D sense (albeit to anywhere in the known universe).