TSR The Dreams in Gary's Basement

[Mistwell]

Here is the quote (which is already second-hand):

She attended UC Berkeley as an undergraduate (history). Her short bio on Wikipedia makes no mention of her being "president of student government," which would be a very trail-blazing accomplishment for a female student in the mid-60s, and I can't find any mention of her in the documents collected at "150 Years of Women at Berkeley." So this story is already suspect.

So according to this description, the Hendrix thing is just some rumour, put out by someone who hated Williams, has said many derogatory things about her, and was a close ally of Gary Gygax.

Which is why I have never once mentioned the Hendrix thing and keep re-stating the exact quote from before about her keeping trophies of fired employees. Which is the only thing the documentary verified and the only point I've ever made about it. I don't care about the Jimi Hendrix thing other than it's a funny item.

The only support offered is that other TSR alums (are they identified?) claim that Williams kept trophies of the people she fired. Again, is there direct evidence offered of even this? Is there documentation?

I haven't seen the video. Maybe there is. But from this description, we've just got rumours.

Documentaries are a fusion of fact and entertainment, and most are as much opinion as journalism. Some are very careful with their facts. Some are not. The fact that this is a documentary is not in itself evidence of anything.

So we are left with an implausible rumour, spread by someone who has said many malicious things about the person in question. I'll continue to take it with a grain of salt.

The named three people who worked on this are all reputable, and you know or should know two of them.

 

[Mistwell]

Yes. His work is based on extensive documentation that is carefully cited, and he extrapolates as little as possible.

Right. He's one of the three who made the documentary. Pat Kilbane Directed, and it was produced written and stars James Lowder and Jon Peterson. You should know both those last two, and you just said you think one is a valid source. So why are you arguing about this?

 

[M.T. Black]

Thanks folks - it sounds like I'll need to be a little more patient in order to see this movie. If any of the backers hears any more news about a release date, I hope you'll post it in here or contact me directly.

 

[MNblockhead]

Yeah honestly for me the way Gygax treated Kuntz is a million times worse than Williams keeping trophies (if true). Williams was just a manager - the relationship between Gygax and Kuntz was way closer, and the betrayal all the more biting because of that.

I think we can say that D&D honestly didn't have competent management until Adkinson came along.

I often wonder how things would have turned out if Don Kayne hadn't died so early in TSR's history.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

I often wonder how things would have turned out if Don Kayne hadn't died so early in TSR's history.

I can't help feeling they would fall out anyway. Don Kaye infamously didn't turn up to Gary's wedding because they'd competed for the same woman (they later made up before D&D was created but the precedent is there).

 

[Eyes of Nine]

Eye of the Beholder is probably my favorite modern D&D documentary.

What can I say, it's got the best title...

 

[Clint_L]

Which is why I have never once mentioned the Hendrix thing and keep re-stating the exact quote from before about her keeping trophies of fired employees. Which is the only thing the documentary verified and the only point I've ever made about it. I don't care about the Jimi Hendrix thing other than it's a funny item.

The documentary apparently has fewer scruples than you. And apparently all the documentary "verified" was that some people made some claims. If you can call "we heard that..." verification.

Edit: clarification: I am not saying that Mistwell has few scruples. I am saying the opposite. Clearly I did not communicate that well. I apologize.

The named three people who worked on this are all reputable, and you know or should know two of them.

That's not the point. They may well have talked to folks who made similar claims about trophies. So who are these folks? What evidence do they have? Was this an office rumour, or maybe a later addition to the myths of the evil Lorraine, to which there have been many patently untrue and vicious rumours attached? Why mention it at all?

All I'm saying is that repeating nasty rumours without presenting actual evidence is not great. Hearsay is not actual evidence. And Lorraine Williams has been a particular target of that sort of gossip.

It also seems like cartoonish behaviour. And from Slaying the Dragon we have direct quotations from employees who recount how much Williams hated laying people off. There is also this relevant quotation from Frank Beard, who worked at TSR for 15 years (quoted from Havard's Blackmoor Blog, 2013):

"Lorraine hated and loathed gamers in general; she felt that they were low-life scum, and didn't want to have any of them working for TSR" -- Untrue. Mostly she was a terrible snob. There were many gamers at TSR including myself. She respected those who showed talent and pulled their share, even though her manner lacked elegance to say the least. She never actually fired anyone I recall among creative and editorial circles.

 

[Mistwell]

The documentary apparently has fewer scruples than you. And apparently all the documentary "verified" was that some people made some claims. If you can call "we heard that..." verification.

Yes, I call eyewitness testimony from multiple sources, as stated by sources you already said you trust, as good verification. That's the journalism standard: at least two sources confirming the same thing. It's, again, WAY more than you have for hundreds of employees claiming to want to work for one person rather than the other without even a second source to confirm it.

I feel like we're going in circles here. You were perfectly comfortable with zero standards for what supports your view to begin this conversation and then were dismissive of any claims which didn't support your views, with increasing demands for evidence which you wouldn't apply to yourself. So where does a conversation go from there?

 

[Umbran]

The documentary apparently has fewer scruples than you.

Mod Note:
As if taking personal pot shots shows you have tons of scruples yourself?

Be better.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yes, I call eyewitness testimony from multiple sources, as stated by sources you already said you trust, as good verification. That's the journalism standard: at least two sources confirming the same thing. It's, again, WAY more than you have for hundreds of employees claiming to want to work for one person rather than the other without even a second source to confirm it.

I feel like we're going in circles here. You were perfectly comfortable with zero standards for what supports your view to begin this conversation and then were dismissive of any claims which didn't support your views, with increasing demands for evidence which you wouldn't apply to yourself. So where does a conversation go from there?

Unfortunately, I have been traveling internationally and am still under the weather, but I'm with it enough to notice this.

I can't help but remember this thread. Now, looking back at it, I can see that you participated in it, from a certain point of view, including repeating things that were questionable. Some of which I addressed in two very lengthy posts. Here and here.

Now, of course, I am a little disturbed to see that you are misstating my argument by saying that I am calling her a hero. Which is rather interesting, given that you seem to also be claiming to be demanding accuracy. I think anyone who actually looks as that thread, and the links I just provided, can see that you are badly misstating what I said ... moreover, it will be fairly obvious that you are one of the individuals that seem to require holding Lorraine out for special contempt.

This is what people are pushing back against. Look, I think everyone here knows that I love Gygax as much as (if not more than) the next person. But I am also perfectly able to recognize that he lost his fastball when he went out to Hollywood (although the women and drugs may have played a role in that). I can balance my love for what he did for the hobby for a decade with the many unpleasant things he did as well- including running TSR into the ground, and the terrible and rampant self-dealing he was involved in (along with the Blumes) that has been extensively documented.

And, in the same way, I can acknowledge that Lorraine did good things for TSR, as well as bad things- without resorting to the many terrible and misogynistic stories that people passed around as gospel, or, even worse, accepting as truth the many lies that were passed around about her. It's easy enough to view the true facts of the situation and view them on the merits without succumbing to the "good ol' boys" stories of the 80s and 90s about Lorraine, most of which don't stand up under scrutiny, and many of them look quite a bit different today.

More to the point- all of those "HA HA FAT WOMAN BAD!" stories that gamers loved to employ back in the day just don't seem so great, do they?

ETA- I would like to add the final note that I have been reiterating. We have repeatedly heard from the few women that worked at TSR that it was not a welcoming environment for women. Is it any surprise that those same people who were not welcoming to their co-workers would be less-than-charitable about a female boss?