The Druid makes me chew the furniture

[Fallen Seraph]

I've had the same thoughts. I'd really prefer if D&D had a way to make a character who shifts into only one animal, but does it very, very well. Instead of the current system, in which the shape shifting types shift into multitudes of different forms.

It is a very specific example but kinda like the different forms that werewolves take in WW's Werewolf games?

I personally would like to see different animals, but for a complete transformation to be only one alternative. Lets see a Druid who grows a maw full of wolfs teeth, and claws like a bear, or the eyesight of a hawk, etc.

 

[Cadfan]

It is a very specific example but kinda like the different forms that werewolves take in WW's Werewolf games?

I personally would like to see different animals, but for a complete transformation to be only one alternative. Lets see a Druid who grows a maw full of wolfs teeth, and claws like a bear, or the eyesight of a hawk, etc.

Sort of like that. Mostly, I'd like to be able to make a character who's "thing" is shifting into a particular form. Their human form would be essentially irrelevant to their combat abilities, because they'd fight almost exclusively in their shifted form. Then, instead of gaining new ways to shift or new things to shift into, as they leveled up they'd gain new combat tactics that utilize their shifted form.

One way to do that in 4e might be to have a class that has a general "beast form" which is then customized by the powers you select. These powers would only be usable in your beast form, and would sometimes come with cosmetic alterations to the beast form.

For example, one character might choose powers that let him move fast, be stealthy, charge effectively, rend flesh with a bite, and deal damage to those who damage him in melee. He might describe his beast form as a cat with tiger stripes, saber teeth, and ridge lines of bone spurs along its back and sides.

I may write something like that someday after I see how the 4e shapeshifters do their thing.

 

[Rechan]

I personally would like to see different animals, but for a complete transformation to be only one alternative. Lets see a Druid who grows a maw full of wolfs teeth, and claws like a bear, or the eyesight of a hawk, etc.

I would prefer this for a type of wizard class. Actually, I think this should be the answer to Polymorph.

Instead of changing into different animals, the spell (or class, or whatever) makes a "War Form". They can pick certain traits from different menues of options. This way, each Character has a unique War Form, and it looks unique to that character.

Edit: Dangit, Cadfan seems to have had the same thought, too. Cadfan, if you do plan on writing that, take a look at Exalted: Lunars. The Lunars in that world have a similar notion (They have a War Form. In addition, they can change into other animals, but these are generally 1) utility forms (bird, aquatic animal, etc) and 2) they must have eaten the heart of that animal in order to change into it.)

 

[fba827]

Sort of like that. Mostly, I'd like to be able to make a character who's "thing" is shifting into a particular form. Their human form would be essentially irrelevant to their combat abilities, because they'd fight almost exclusively in their shifted form. Then, instead of gaining new ways to shift or new things to shift into, as they leveled up they'd gain new combat tactics that utilize their shifted form.

One way to do that in 4e might be to have a class that has a general "beast form" which is then customized by the powers you select. These powers would only be usable in your beast form, and would sometimes come with cosmetic alterations to the beast form.

For example, one character might choose powers that let him move fast, be stealthy, charge effectively, rend flesh with a bite, and deal damage to those who damage him in melee. He might describe his beast form as a cat with tiger stripes, saber teeth, and ridge lines of bone spurs along its back and sides.

I may write something like that someday after I see how the 4e shapeshifters do their thing.

Honestly? I'd prefer to be mainly spellcasters and (if they have spellcasting) I too would like it to be specific form based.

What if they could wildshape in to a form similar to the Ranger's beast companion? (i.e. a 'cat form wildshape' that uses the stat block for the cat beast companion). But going in to that would be house rules... it was just a random thought.

 

[Cadfan]

The basic problem I have with non combat shifting is this-

Lets say we want to let a druid turn into a songbird. What's that worth?

Well, as a songbird, he is small. That means he can fit into small places a normal pc cannot go. He is also hard to notice, purely because he is small, and additionally because in many environments he looks like an unthreatening animal. I imagine it would be pretty hard to shoot a songbird or hit it with an ax, so there's benefits there.

What disadvantages does it have? Well, none, really, because he can always stop being a songbird if he needs to do something a songbird can't. Unless that's not the case (special ritual rules?), but generally, this is the sort of thing you terminate at will.

So what should we assign as a cost to this suite of abilities? Stealth, camouflage, flight, and tiny size when needed? The steath is going to be better than an equivalently stealthy human being (because the Druid can train in stealth AND turn into a bird, making him doubly stealthy), the camouflage is unavailable to other PCs, the Flight is maybe epic tier in quality (below epic flight has short duration, but this flight isn't really combat compatible, so maybe it should be reduced to just paragon in quality). The ability to shrink is probably equal to the ability to teleport, so at least that's easily priced.

So in total, turning into a songbird seems to be worth at LEAST two feats (training or skill focus in stealth and bluff), one racial power (eladrin teleport), and one paragon level mobility boost (flight).

That is HUGE.

And that's the basic problem with non combat shifting. Fans of it are going to want to be able to do more than just turn into a songbird, too- meaning that the problem compounds.

Its why I favor a single, customizable form for shifters. It at least keeps things under control, and since there's a single form, abilities for it can be priced the same as abilities for a PC. If you want your beastform to be stealthy, you can make that cost about the same as making YOU stealthy.

 

[Shroomy]

I'd have to think that WotC's thinking about shapeshifting has to be reflected by the PHB2 version of the druid and the later day appearance of spells such as aspect of the wolf and the various investiture spells from FCII. To me, all of those point to a single form model of shapeshifting. That said, if the 4e druid is a primal controller, I don't really see a place for shapeshifting as a core ability (or maybe I'm not thinking outside the box enough).

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'd have to think that WotC's thinking about shapeshifting has to be reflected by the PHB2 version of the druid and the later day appearance of spells such as aspect of the wolf and the various investiture spells from FCII. To me, all of those point to a single form model of shapeshifting. That said, if the 4e druid is a primal controller, I don't really see a place for shapeshifting as a core ability (or maybe I'm not thinking outside the box enough).

Well, it has never been confirmed that the 4E Driud is going to be a Controller, so I think there is room for the class to have shapeshifting even if shapeshifting is not a Controller abiliy.

Also, you are quite right that abilities like aspect of the wolf are probably going to be the model that 4E shapeshifting will be based upon.

Anyways, the wildshape ability is the one thing that made the 3E Druid fairly unique, and I am both hoping and expecting it to be the core schtick that defines the Druid's Daily Powers. After all, thanks to the the popularity of that image, Druids in the Warcraft games are defined by the ability to shapeshift. Actually, the way Warcraft 3 Druids of the Claw work is how I want the 4E Druids to work, combining powerful animal forms with spells that make sense whether they are in human form or animal form. To be perfectly honest, I never understood the Druid = Weather Mage association...

I am looking forward to monday, though actually I may be looking forward to the Invoker preview more than the Druid preview, particularly if my guess regarding the Invoker is accurate.

 

[Zsig]

4 days ...


What am I expecting? Hell, at this point I'm more than anything else expecting to be surprised. I don't really care if they're gonna be Shapeshifting Strikerish type or if they're Weather Mages, as long as they're interesting and different from the stuff we already have, with cool new features that is not like anything we've seen so far (in 4E), and also as long as they're not as overpowered as they used to be on 3rd edition.

 

[Jhaelen]

Who shapeshifts in fantasy archetypes besides a druid? (And werewolves and things, but talking classes here) What other unique things do druids do?

Umm, what? Now, that really baffles me. Where outside of D&D and things inspired by D&D (like WOW) are there shapeshifting druids?

In Ars Magica House Bjornaer is a magical tradition of shapeshifters with Germanic roots. Each member of this tradition has a 'Heartbeast', i.e. a single type of animal that they can change into and that in a way resembles their true form. It will typically strongly influence their personality traits, as well.

The 'Druidic' tradition is mostly covered by House Diedne, now extinct, which had strong Celtic roots. They've been the masters of spontaneous magic (as opposed to the formulaic, ritualistic style of magic with Roman roots, which is primarily practiced by pretty much all other Houses). Their magic was centered on spells influencing nature (plants, animals, weather). IIRC, 'cursing' magic, was also one of their strengths (but maybe I'm confusing this with the druids from the DSA rpg).

Back, when White Wolf was in control of the Ars Magica line they even had a supplement explaining that taboos prevented a shapechanger from becoming a member of the priest class, i.e. a druid. I also vaguely remember reading that the former were influenced by the moon, the latter by the sun. I.e. they're two sides of the same coin.

Anyway, back to my vision for D&D 4E:
Druids should either be controllers or leaders without the ability to shapechange. A different primal class should be defenders or strikers with the ability to (or focusing on) shapechange. That's what would feel right for me.

 

[Phaezen]

Is it Monday yet?

As a side note, no DDI updates for tomorrow (Friday) aaaaiiii where am I going to get my fix?

Phaezen