The Dungeon Masters' Foundation Mk.II

[Nightcloak]

Mistakes

Everyone makes mistakes. But as a DM, everyone is watching you and your mistakes are generally more noticed (if small) to catastaphic (if big). But the thing is, everyone still makes them. the players will eventually do their own mistakes as well. For every DM error, like forgetting to attack or use a critters special ability I have heard a player gripe about forgeting his dodge bonus or some odd combat bonus from a spell or affect. In fact, I got sick of hearing about forgotten dodge bonuses from the dodge feat and just house ruled it to count against all attackers.

So, for small errors, don't sweat them. You are not the only one doing them. 3E is packed with so much rule info that it is realistic to forget things. Is it a good thing: no. But it will happen and odds are for every minor error you make against the PCs, their will also be a minor error you make that will binefit your PCs and they will make similar minor errors.

Big errors. Well, things like TPKs or story killers are more trublesome. There is no white-washing them. If you catch the error right away, then you could always do a "re-wind" back to the error if possible and continue. If it's to late, then the best thing to do is just admit the error, apologize, and move on. You can always offer some boon if it helps, but it's probably not neccessary.

Most people are just happy to have their grievences acknowledged honestly. It's like being at work: How often would a little recognition and honesty help you and make you feel better about your job? Same with a game (or any group or social interaction). DMs would worry less about their games of they got good feed back from the players ("Hey DM, nice adventure - I never so that comming, it was great!") and players will feel better if the DM is honest with them and acknowledges them ("Sorry about that Fiendish Troll, it looked good on paper" or "Great combat, that trick you pulled rocked")

Final thought: I use to worry about the adventures I ran. Mistakes made, were they good, how I could have done them better, if I only had more time, yadda, yadda. Then my wife looked at me one day and said "Stop worrying. They've been showing up for over a decade. You must be doing something right." And that is the real crux of the whole thing. If your players keep showing up or wanting you to DM, then you are doing things right.

 

[Nightcloak]

I LOVE it! Unfortunately, the last time I handed my players props in a cool font, they handed them back and said, "We're not reading this $#!^ unless you print it out in Times New Roman."

I really need some new players...

DM

I once hand wrote a warning from a captive pixie on paper that had clues to the dungeon the players were in. The thing is, I used the xerox at work to shrink it down to a really small size, the size of a pixie. They were not happy with me either. They asked for a better one, but I just refused (or course, the mage could have waited a day and used the enlarge spell he had - then I would have given it to him in normal size, but noooooooo). Anyways, they started blundering around the dungeon into traps and realized they better try. It took some doing and squinting and a little creative use of beer bottles and a torch lamp. But they did it.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

Everyone makes mistakes. But as a DM, everyone is watching you and your mistakes are generally more noticed (if small) to catastaphic (if big).

Final thought: I use to worry about the adventures I ran. Mistakes made, were they good, how I could have done them better, if I only had more time, yadda, yadda. Then my wife looked at me one day and said "Stop worrying. They've been showing up for over a decade. You must be doing something right." And that is the real crux of the whole thing. If your players keep showing up or wanting you to DM, then you are doing things right.

Well, all of my mistakes have been small on that scale.

However, as far as the "Final Thought"(TM) goes, I had one player who was taking the game too seriously (which is what helped me give advice a few weeks ago). Now my players are not taking the game seriously at all. This is just killing the game for me. I REALLY LOVE the campaign I am running and the players all profess to love it too, but the almost constant heckling, along with constant metaspeak (asking NPC's their level, having a fighter shout out menu items every time they encounter an enemy, using "ghettospeak" IC, etc.) and stuff is really killing it for me. I hate to admit it, but I am actually thinking about putting the campaign on hold and taking a hiatus. I don't want to, but telling them to stop the behavior didn't work and asking them to leave the group will leave me with 3 players... also, these players have been great players in the past. I am blaming my mistakes and the problem with the other player for the current problems, but I am not sure. So, they "show up" but not to game. I have communicated the expectations of the game repeatedy, and they have agreed that it is what they want in a game. Grrrr..... Not sure what to do.

DM

 

[Nightcloak]

I'm gonna just dish out a bunch of thoughts here, so bear with me if I missed something. But what you're saying is hitting home and I want to help. I had an "event" that put me on DM vacation for a while and I don't like seeing this happen to others.

Well, all of my mistakes have been small on that scale.

Small mistakes don't kill a game. If they did, I never would have made it out of 1E

However, as far as the "Final Thought"(TM) goes, I had one player who was taking the game too seriously (which is what helped me give advice a few weeks ago). Now my players are not taking the game seriously at all. This is just killing the game for me. I REALLY LOVE the campaign I am running and the players all profess to love it too, but the almost constant heckling, along with constant metaspeak (asking NPC's their level, having a fighter shout out menu items every time they encounter an enemy, using "ghettospeak" IC, etc.) and stuff is really killing it for me.

OK. Looks like we got a bigger issue here. The players are either

A) Not getting something they want out of their gaming experience or
B) Their priorities have changed.

Either way, they are not on the same page as you. If you are not having hun, then I'm sure there are others not having fun also.

I hate to admit it, but I am actually thinking about putting the campaign on hold and taking a hiatus.

Getting away is good if you do it for you, like a DM vacation of sorts. But doing it because of the game problems will not help you in the long run if the same players return to the table later with the same problems.

I don't want to, but telling them to stop the behavior didn't work and asking them to leave the group will leave me with 3 players... also, these players have been great players in the past.

Something has changed. We need to identify what that is. But if I read your post properly, only some of the players are behaving different, while the rest are acting as business as usual. My thoughts are predicated on this, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I am blaming my mistakes and the problem with the other player for the current problems, but I am not sure.

No. If your "mistakes" were the real issue, then all the players would be out of line. The rule of the "mob mentality" basicaly shows that even the weakest voice will follow the pact when he thinks he's in the majority with people he agrees with. Harsh, but true.

Now, your group only has several people acting out, so the issue is not something you have done but more something to do with each player's relation to the game itself.

So, they "show up" but not to game. I have communicated the expectations of the game repeatedy, and they have agreed that it is what they want in a game. Grrrr..... Not sure what to do.

Something is up. I recomend a "players survey". There are a bunch here in ENWorld or if you would like, I can email you mine. A player survey would accomplish the following:

1. Allow confidential, or "off the record" information to pass to you only. You can even make each anonymous so as to get critical feed back on yourself if you like.
2. Find out what each player thinks of the game, and what they like and don''t like.
3. Gauge changes of style of play within the group. Maybe some of the players just don't want a serious game anymore and need to get out to blow off steem do to RL. (I had that particular issue with my regualar group)
4. Find out what others think of the current state of affairs.
5. You may learn something new about your players desires to enhance the game in the future.

I can go on, but I think you got the point. In a nut shell, you need to find out what is going on. You are not out of the woods though, you may hear some things you would rather not, or find out you have changed too, or even the players have indeed changed enough to warrant a split. But it is worth it, for you and your game to get to the truth. I recommend all DMs do this at one point if not periodicaly just to find out how their players are doing.

If you can find out what is up, then you can fix it and get back to the game you love! In the end, that is the point of playing.

I really do hope this helps. Good Luck!

 

[Dyne]

I don't know if I've mentioned this before or not, but I'm co-DMing a game on another site. It'll be based heavily on mythology, along with regular D&D concepts. If you're interested, I urge you to come right over and start posting.

If you are interested, go here.

 

[Blade of Desecration]

I would like to ask some help. Its for my FR campaign, the one with the 4th level PCs who are stuck in the Underdark. Some of the oldies might remember. I haven't done that campaign in a while, but its about to start up again. Basically, I've been planning for them to get into a tannarukke (orc tieflings) city, having been hired by some duergar (who are really disguised dopplegangers working for there enemies) for the infiltration, and who are going to betray them, yada yada yada (by the way, thanks to all the oldies from the WotC boards for the help on that ). Anyways, I'm having them at some point stumble into a place I'll call the Hall of Rot. Basically a big tomb. This tomb is going to be guarded by a single collossal monstrous centipede (got the whole creepy attack planned out , complete with it snaking up one of the pillars). I just need help on the actual fight. The Hall of Rot has a bunch of pillars in it, so they can use those for cover. But this thing is a CR 9 against three level fours. The PCs are part of a larger group, so backup shouldn't be a problem. And I can always put in a few more smaller monstrous centipedes. This is really my first time having the PCs up against a single big enemy, so I was wondering if this fight was even, or if I need to even it. The party consists of a fighter, a psychic warrior, and a rogue (the rogue is a good player, but not so good at running rogues, as demontrated by the few times so far they've hit real traps).

 

[ChaosEvoker]

Hmm doesn't sound like it's even, if I were you I would expand the tomb and put in all kinds of vermin and a few sparse undead, get them a couple of levels or somethign like that to lv them up for the fight. Last thing you want ot do is end up killing off your PCs...trust me.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

@ Nightcloak - Thanks! I appreciate your candor and advice. Just a few weeks ago, I was helping somebody else with a similar problem, but as sometimes happens, I have now run up against a problem that is getting the best of me, and thanks to ENWORLD, others are helping me as I have helped in the past. I think its great.

I'm gonna just dish out a bunch of thoughts here, so bear with me if I missed something. But what you're saying is hitting home and I want to help. I had an "event" that put me on DM vacation for a while and I don't like seeing this happen to others.

OK. Looks like we got a bigger issue here. The players are either

A) Not getting something they want out of their gaming experience or
B) Their priorities have changed.

Either way, they are not on the same page as you. If you are not having hun, then I'm sure there are others not having fun also.


Something has changed. We need to identify what that is. But if I read your post properly, only some of the players are behaving different, while the rest are acting as business as usual. My thoughts are predicated on this, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, your group only has several people acting out, so the issue is not something you have done but more something to do with each player's relation to the game itself.

Something is up. I recomend a "players survey". There are a bunch here in ENWorld or if you would like, I can email you mine. A player survey would accomplish the following:

1. Allow confidential, or "off the record" information to pass to you only. You can even make each anonymous so as to get critical feed back on yourself if you like.
2. Find out what each player thinks of the game, and what they like and don''t like.
3. Gauge changes of style of play within the group. Maybe some of the players just don't want a serious game anymore and need to get out to blow off steem do to RL. (I had that particular issue with my regualar group)
4. Find out what others think of the current state of affairs.
5. You may learn something new about your players desires to enhance the game in the future.

I can go on, but I think you got the point. In a nut shell, you need to find out what is going on. You are not out of the woods though, you may hear some things you would rather not, or find out you have changed too, or even the players have indeed changed enough to warrant a split. But it is worth it, for you and your game to get to the truth. I recommend all DMs do this at one point if not periodicaly just to find out how their players are doing.

If you can find out what is up, then you can fix it and get back to the game you love! In the end, that is the point of playing.

I really do hope this helps. Good Luck!

Okay, I have boiled down your advice and will respond with more specifics in an effort to get more to the crux of the problem if possible.

After two sessions of utter silliness and distraction (during the second of which I made the arrow mistake), I privately polled my players by email (the means we normally use to communicate) about their enjoyment of the campaign, my GM style, the style of the campaign, etc. The players involved in the undesirable behavior all agreed that they had gone way overboard and that they didn't want me to change a thing about the game. Actually, I had recently run a series of campaigns that were darker and more role-playing heavy in tone and style. This series of campaigns went about two years, when I discovered that I was unconsciously trying to gear my style toward the most vocal player at the table. After serious discussion and reorganization of my group, we changed back to a more "classic 1E feel" and style. The other players were VERY relieved to lighten up the tone a bit and I was liberated that I was going to get to play the game as it was when we started playing (and everyone agreed). The player who was taking things too seriously had trouble with the change of style. To make a long story short (and avoid awkward details), he is no longer at our table. However, now the silliness factor is destroying the classic feel and it is drifting to a level of parody that would teach Hackmaster a thing or two about game parody.

Anyway, after the surveys, we played another session last week. We got more done, but the silliness and distraction still climbed. Anything said at the table by anyone is becoming fair game for ridicule and heckling (see the thread on metaspeak and the thread on funny nicknames for NPC's). One of our players came back last week after work conflicts left him out for a few weeks and he was frustrated that he couldn't get a straight answer to any questions about the game from anyone but me. Also, another player was absent due to his wife being sick and he is one of the stronger voices of maturity at the table.

It actually seems that the split is along age lines. Two of our four younger players (19-21) are part of the problem and one of the remaining two would leave if I split those two out of the group. The other two players are older (30's), as am I. The only change I see out of game is that one of the players involved is now running a game one or two days a week (12 hour sessions) that is going on a pretty high level of silliness, though he is frustrated at players who don't take his game seriously.

I am really not bitter or angry at any of the players, as I know it is not overtly an intentional effort to destroy the game. I just want to save this particular campaign since it is the style and setting I have wanted to DM for a few years, but didn't since I didn't want to disappoint the player that was heavy into serious role-playing.

Any help is appreciated. I think dissecting these sorts of issues here helps all DM's.

DM

 

[Mordmorgan the Mad]

BoD: As much fun as a single monstrous centipede might be, I'd suggest cutting the centipede's CR a few and adding in swarm or two of fine centipedes. Better to have the floor covered in the little buggers (and what with the bad lighting, the PCs just might think that soft crunching is loose rubble) and have the larger centipede curled around a statue at the end of the hall. As they realize that the floor is covered in bugs and a very, very large bug is about to eat them, have the swarms rise from the ground and attack.

Another idea would be to have the larger centipede be an awakened centipede cleric of Talona. Once the PCs slay the centipede cleric, it might just dissolve into a massive pile of writhing centipedes. (If you want a recurring creature, the Libris Mortis has an interesting template that allows corporeal undead to assume a swarm form, and it's possible that talona would return the creature as an undead creature of some sort, possibly a corpse creature).

 

[Stone Angel]

Thats a cool idea, what gives undead the swarm form? I must have missed it.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone