The Dungeon Masters' Foundation Mk.II

[Morbog of Ghetto D]

Sympathy for the Devil

Greetings and salivations,

So heres the topic that has been killing me for 3weeks. And you are the only people I can turn to.

First I have Dmed/Refereed rpgs since 1990, and have played since 78'. My "old" gaming crew retunred to D&D after a 3 year break. Im running the new D20 system, 3.5 with the various asssociated problems etc. We were all 2nd ed. players..

Anyway. Seems to me that the campaign is just getting out of hand with non stop meta gaming, arguments, of all things 2nd GUESSING THE DM!

You see we're all 29+ in age and I now believe we're too smart for our own good. we only play once a month (which sux) and we play for 4-8 good solid hours...

As we all know DMing is a thankless job, and requires a big investment in time.
Sadly I have players counting move squares and telling me what i can do and cant do. Of course its all through the players perspective, and they assume that the rules are applied 100% the same for monsters and such.

My response has been a swift dismissal of question or concern, mainly because If I indulge the player, we have 5 arm chair DMs (who have never dmed) hypothessizing about decisions that they arent required to worry about.

Primarily, its caused me to be very defensive and my patience is shot. Seems like there isnt a single encounter that some one doesnt say "wait a minute?!?!?" Right in the middle of me describing the action/environment.

Im a "narative" minded DM, and several of the players are heavy "mechanical" players.
its to the point where Im saying," Well youre so F%$#@#$% smart why dont you run the game!. Buy the books,paint the leads, draw the maps, create the prestige clasesses..etc.etc.etc.

But I know the game will die a slow death under another DM. The other player that has run games, was Module Man, literally reading the module while we played, and setting down the map, with players pointing where they go... A lesser experience than what Im used to.

They so badly want to apply 2nd edition knowledge, it kills them. especially with "known" monsters. I have therefore started using "non Traditional" monsters, or archetypes. 3.5 rules give old monsters new capabilites as feats... The players just want to know WHY?
My thinking is"well solve this problem in game, and in character. Maybe the PC can research undead types in the church/librabry. Maybe you can seek out a sage?"...It just blows my mind. Especially when a PC is telling me how to run a MONSTER that I CREATED!...

My plan is as follows.

1. Meta game penalty increased to 1000 Xp or 1 level per offense!!
2. Only use non standard monsters, and change up the old ones
3. Outline at the beginning of the session that NOONE should tell the DM how to run a encounter
4. More closely enforce the "table the argument" till the end of the session...

Any hints would be helpful. I really like running the game, and its just reaching a nice point in the campaign. But with the Fun:non fun ratio changes it will self destruct anyhow.


Many of these issue are soooo rudinmentary. 1 player even believes that he should have a chance to see enemies approaching from BEHIND?!?!?

One of my players even called me a M.F.er which is totally out of hand...

thx

 

[LilMissKittyn]

Straight off, know that I've never DMed, but I think I can give you some advice on how to deal with the people.

Some advice on your rules:
1. Meta game penalty increased to 1000 Xp or 1 level per offense!!
This may work, but it may just create more demands and contention. You've got to be careful.
If they ignore the penalty, you might even resort to public humiliation. But be careful, because this can get you in a lot of trouble if not done with....how do I say this..? Tact.

3. Outline at the beginning of the session that NOONE should tell the DM how to run a encounter
This is....risky, at best. Again, it will get people angry. In addition, everyone is wrong sometimes, but you should explain to them that it's your campaign, you've outlined it and spent hours on it, and ask them to think twice before they object. Just be wary of over-controlling, it just worsens the problem.

4. More closely enforce the "table the argument" till the end of the session...
Another very legitimate possibilty, but you'd have to outline several penalties to enforce this....

Some other ideas I came up with:
1) Talk to the players. After all, it's a really good game, but it's still just a game, and they shouldn't second-guess everything you do. They may not even realize they're doing it.

2) Find a player within the group that you might be close to. Get them to "infiltrate the system," so to speak. Have them spread a few words in your favor, talk to individuals, whatever it takes.

3) What's your playing enviroment like? There may be some factors involved, such as space or temperature, that is easily fixed.

4) Do your players know the rules as well as you? Maybe suggest that they go back through the handbook again. They might even go out and buy their own DMG if they REALLY want to know what's going on, and THEN have them look up the rule before they challenge you. Your justification for this would be that you don't want to interrupt valuable gameplay.

5) Are there IRL problems between two or more players in the group? You might try to prod them to resolve this issues, if there are. If they can't be resolved, see if you can get one of them to graciously step out of the campaign. Space is a good thing.

6) You could also set up a system, such as "you get this many protests in a game play session" or something similar. Set limits.

7) If all else fails, take extreme measures. Kill their characters. Kick them out of the group if you have to (it sounds like you have a fairly good-sized group, so you could frame it in the terms of "well, we could just keep going without you." It sounds like if it keeps going as it is now, the group will eventually disband anyways. Or you could just threaten to find another group, unless there's some big interpersonal relationships involved within the scheme.

I'll save the technical stuff for someone with more gameplay experience. I hope these suggestions help. Good luck.

 

[Nightcloak]

So heres the topic that has been killing me for 3weeks. And you are the only people I can turn to.

Wow. There is a lot to discuss so I'm going to address specific issues over several posts today.

First I have Dmed/Refereed rpgs since 1990, and have played since 78'.

Testify!!! *Insert organ music and a James Brown:! "HEY!

Old schooler here, except I've been mostly DMing fron the beginning. The great thing about the DMF is the full range of styles and ages present

As we all know DMing is a thankless job, and requires a big investment in time.

NO. DMing is a rewarding job! You're frustration with your group has soured your feel for the "job". Doing a good job does take time. It is a labor of love. And it is easy to get discouraged when you don't think it's appreciated.

Your feeling like a person in a one-sided relationship. Your doing all the work and the other person shows up and complains or nit-picks. Makes you say "What's the point?" and "I'm better off staying home and watching a movie".

As the mission statment in the first post says, "This is an oasis from players". Chaos Evokers' statement isn't targeting players - it's targeting you, the DM. You are amongst peers who do appreciate the hours and understand the frustration of being a DM.

I've been where you are at. I've walked away and have taken a "DM vacation" before. But it's a vacation. Why? Well, because...

But I know the game will die a slow death under another DM. The other player that has run games, was Module Man, literally reading the module while we played, and setting down the map, with players pointing where they go... A lesser experience than what Im used to.

And that is the crux. You want more out of the game.


So, my fellow DM. We're going to get your game back. Because it is your game.

*Motions to the DMF*

Charge!

 

[Mordmorgan the Mad]

Well, before I get into this, I'll let you know that I've been DMing since roughly 1993. I can't say that I've specifically had this kind of problem, mostly because I'm a fairly heavy-handed DM, and my players are (generally) easy-going and trusting.

I think that all your current game problems can be traced back to a lack of trust. The Players don't trust you (or are unable to trust you) to run a fair game. Please don't take this as an insult, because it's not meant to be. Many players enter the game with a "Me vs. the DM" mentality, which can be very hard to overcome.

I move around a lot, and as such, I often play with people who've never held a PHB before. When getting new people into the game, I always tell them: "Just remember that this is just a game. My job here is to make sure that everyone has fun. The way I DM isn't always fair, and it isn't always by the books, but it will be fun. If you can trust me to have that goal in mind when we play, everything will go much smoother".

One of my long-time players has a habbit (which greatly annoys me) of counting HP damage. He doesn't own any of the MMs, and doesn't often take into concideration things like DR and Fast Healing, and so every once in a while, he'll ask "How the hell is this thing still breathing?", to which I always reply "Trust me, it is". After one of those "Trust Me's" he always tries to think of some new way to drop the beast, rather than complaining that the monster isn't what he'd thought it'd be.

I think that you really need to sit down with your players and just talk about the game for a while. Ask them what they expect from you and what they want to see in the game. If they're just looking for Hack n Slash, and you're more interested in RP, maybe you all can agree on a suitable balance.

Tell them that they shouldn't assume the monsters they encounter will be carbon copies of the ones in the MM. They won't necessarily be the ones they remember from 2e. NPCs may have PrCs they've never heard of and abilities that aren't in any book. They should understand that these things will be par for the course, and that you don't want to hear complaints every time a monster does something they don't expect or understand.

As for being called a MFer, correcting that is simple. Tell anyone who (verbally or other wise) insults another player (including the DM) like that again will be asked to leave and possibly won't be invited back for X number of sessions, if at all.

I hope I've helped a little, or at least gotten your gears turning. Please let us know how things progress.

 

[derbacher]

Testify!!! *Insert organ music and a James Brown:! "HEY!

Echoes James Brown "Hey!" and jumps into the hot tub!

Been doing the DM thing since '79. I can agree with everything Mordmorgan said. You seem to have a long term relationship with this group. That can be a difficult thing to overcome when things start to go downhill. Always the first thing to try: talk to the players outside of the game. Explain that this is your creation, and the world revolves according to your rules. There will be (many) times when they cannot know the whole story, just to keep the suspense of the campaign and give them challenges worthy of their abilities.

One of my long-time players has a habbit (which greatly annoys me) of counting HP damage.

Wait, this player is in my group! (I think this player is in every group...)

[sblock]I've been away for six days. Complete system failure after a two-second power surge. All passwords and data lost. No back ups. Such fun, you would not believe![/sblock]

 

[DarrenGMiller]

As an "old schooler" myself, I am going to take a whack at this problem. I want for us to be able to "give you your game back" but I doubt it is going to happen exactly that way. Whay do I say this? Because I have been there before... several times... even recently (there is a thread here somewhere). It turned the hobby I love into a chore.

DISCLAIMER: From here on out, I am not going to humor you or "pull any punches." Some of what I have to say might hurt and seem unfair. I am attempting to help (as requested) and do not intend to coddle. If you want this situation resolved, you are going to have to make some tough choices.

A gaming group is a complex set of interwoven relationships. Everybody comes to the table for their own reasons and your job is to make sure they all get out of the game that which will make them enjoy the game the most. Or is it? At any rate, let me address some of the specifics of your post:

Seems to me that the campaign is just getting out of hand with non stop meta gaming, arguments, of all things 2nd GUESSING THE DM!

I have been on the receiving end of that myself. The second guessing may just be human nature, but the way it is being handled...

You see we're all 29+ in age and I now believe we're too smart for our own good.

I identify with this too, since I am in my early (or is it now mid) 30's. Our group is part 30-somethings and part 18-20 age group. The younger players seem much more accepting of the DM's rulings (that's me BTW) and the older folks are more skeptical and jaded. They tend to try to interpret the rules in a way that will most benefit their character.

As we all know DMing is a thankless job, and requires a big investment in time.

Yes, it requires a time investment, but does give a huge return on that investment (as has already been pointed out). If it is so thankless, then why have you been doing it for so long? First of all, if you find no joy in it, then stop now. If you enjoy it when the game goes well, then admit it and stop playing "sour grapes." I do NOT know it is a thankless job, or I would have given up long ago. It only seems that way when the relationships at the table have become "dysunfctional" (I hate that word, but they are truly no longer functioning beneficially for anyone, like it or not)

they assume that the rules are applied 100% the same for monsters and such.

You are assuming that they are not? That is no problem, especially since you run a narrative style game. However, it sounds like they have different assumptions than you about the kind of game they are playing in. I wonder if you have clarified that for them.

My response has been a swift dismissal of question or concern

Sounds like you need to confront the basic assumption of what kind of game you are all playing. I am wondering if you were once a mechanics DM with these players in an older version of the game and have switched to narrative as you matured.

If I indulge the player, we have 5 arm chair DMs (who have never dmed) hypothessizing about decisions that they arent required to worry about.

Primarily, its caused me to be very defensive and my patience is shot. Seems like there isnt a single encounter that some one doesnt say "wait a minute?!?!?" Right in the middle of me describing the action/environment.

Im a "narative" minded DM, and several of the players are heavy "mechanical" players.
its to the point where Im saying," Well youre so F%$#@#$% smart why dont you run the game!. Buy the books,paint the leads, draw the maps, create the prestige clasesses..etc.etc.etc.

Have you discussed your style preferences with your players? It REALLY sounds like the kind of game they want is not the kind of game you want and they are attempting to make you give them the kind of game they want, one way or another. Hey, I do really understand. I like to avoid conflict with my players until it MUST be dealt with or the game will fall apart. I am determined to change my ways though. It sounds like you are at this point.

They so badly want to apply 2nd edition knowledge, it kills them. especially with "known" monsters. I have therefore started using "non Traditional" monsters, or archetypes. 3.5 rules give old monsters new capabilites as feats... The players just want to know WHY?

No.

My thinking is"well solve this problem in game, and in character.

Also, No. It NEVER works for the players to metagame continuously (or seemingly sontinuously) and it does not work to solve it in game.

1. Meta game penalty increased to 1000 Xp or 1 level per offense!!

This only treats the symptoms and not the disease. It doesn't work and it makes them resent your game more and become more determined to derail it. As I stated, I have been through this before.

2. Only use non standard monsters, and change up the old ones

This is the equivalent of hiding the medicine inside something they will swallow, only to have them spit it up when they discover they have been duped. It is not necessary. You should not and don't have to do this.

3. Outline at the beginning of the session that NOONE should tell the DM how to run a encounter

At the beginning of a session is too late. At the beginning of the campaign. If they don't trust you to run the game, they should find a new game. More on that later.

4. More closely enforce the "table the argument" till the end of the session...

Okay, this is the one that really caught me. Either it is a rule or it isn't. There is no degree of enforcement. If a mechanics argument arises, stop it. Restate the rule (that they have all presumably agreed on, since they are adults?) and declare said argument tabled. If it continues, end the session. They will not notice as you quietly start packing your stuff until you fold up the screen or whatever, then they will wonder what is going on. They will start asking at some point. Tell them you have to go. In no way further the argument. Do NOT even address its validity. Remove yourself. When you walk out, they will be shocked, then angry, but they will eventually discover the reason you left. They will either be more careful or need a new DM.

1 player even believes that he should have a chance to see enemies approaching from BEHIND?!?!?

I am not a mechanics-nut (rules lawyer), but I believe characters do have a chance, since in 3.5E, they are technically aware from all sides. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

One of my players even called me a M.F.er which is totally out of hand...

It is more than totally out of hand. It is inexcusable. Even more inexcusable is you hanging around to tolerate more of it. The point at which my players resort to blatant verbal abuse is the point at which I say, "Game over" and walk out of the door.

Now we get to the crux of the matter. LilMissKittyn is attempting to address it from the same point of view that you are trying to address it and that is "in-game." There are no table rules, rules of order, house rules, or rules of any kind that are going to solve this problem. This needs to be addressed outside of a regular gaming session. Might I suggest (GASP!) not gaming until it is resolved to your satisfaction (and theirs). If this is not fixed, it will only progress to the point that you and/or they will walk away from gaming and not come back.

This is not "their problem" or "your problem" (as DM) it is the problem of everyone at the table. There seems to be several problems that need to be addressed. These include:

1. Lack of a shared vision of what the game should be like. Is it story or is it mechanic? These are two very distinct styles and a recent Monte Cook article helped me decide that this was a major problem in my game. I (and one or two players) were expecting one type of game and the rest of the players expected (or wanted) something else. I (we) tried to "legislate it" with table rules, etc. but had the same problem you are having. I realized that I was running the style of game I was running to satisfy a very small percentage of players. I switched over to an "old school" game and left the narrative approach behind. The majority are extremely happy and I am happy as well (this is how it was when I first started playing after all). The role-playing has never been better and we are not trying to manufacture the environment, instead, it is being spontaneously created.

2. An avoidance of conflict is present. This is a tough one. If a player is an a$$ to you or others at the table, then solve it. Either remove the player, resolve the situation through conversation, etc. or whatever. This is NOT easy. The situation needs to be addressed though. It is never fun to remove someone you have been gaming with for a long time and it makes that person unhappy/angry/resentful, etc. Realize that they are not really having fun in the session, they are just fulfilling a "fix" and going through the motions.

3. I always hated it when I asked for suggestions about player problems and the first response was to either remove players from the group or find a new group. Neither is easy andI though it could be done another way (like solving it in-game) There is a reason why people respond with this solution right away. First, let me say that removing a player or dissolving a group should be done with care and tact. These are committed relationships that you are destroying. I have been with one of my players through most of his marriage, the births of both of his children and all of his troubles and travails since. A few years ago, we removed him from the game for a few months (and we didn't do it the correct way). Terminiating these relationships is a painful thing for all parties involved. Sometimes it is the only way to fix the problems with the game. If the friendship is more valuable, then change the game... or stop gaming for a while until you all sort things out.

I am sorry to be overly harsh, but drastic times call for drastic measures. Later, you will only regret what you haven't tried. Do not allow the verbal abuse to escalate or become physical.

I wish you the best. I am here to do what I can to help you. We are fraternite.

DM

My apologies for any and all grammatical or typographical errors.

 

[Y.O.Morales]

Allright guys, Morrus gave me the greenlight to start the hosted forum and its billing cycle from this month.

But before setting up the forum, I REALLY want to know what original (a.k.a. not redundant) uses it could have. I do NOT want to pay for the first year only for a group of people to continue an already-long thread or do other activities that could be done in other ENWorld forums (like the Play by Post).

So, any suggestions to get the ball rolling?

 

[Blade of Desecration]

@MoGD: I feel your pain. My players argue about everything with me. My reaction is usually "Alright, lets continue playing, and later on if you can find where it says I can't do this, show me." None of my players are willing to spend an hour looking for a quote they know doesn't exist so they leave it alone. If a quote about the rule does exist, I stand corrected. But what your PCs are doing sucks half the fun out of the game. Tell them that if they wanted to do everything exactly as it says in the book, then they should never have tried playing RPGs. If you want strict rules, stick to computers and an XBOX. Otherwise, it's the DMs call.

 

[Nightcloak]

Wow. Walk away for a few hours and some really great advice hits the boards. It would appear that I have distracted the patient with a motivational speach and the Wolf came in with the hard medicine. But it is good medicine and needs to be said, and was said very well I might add.

A few points to add (or agree with as the case way be)

First: Handle this outside of the game. Small issues can be handled in game. This is not a small issue.

I’m a "narrative" minded DM, and several of the players are heavy "mechanical" players.

The Wolf and Mordmorgan are right, you need to step back and analize what you want out of the game and what your players want. You both need to be playing the same style of game. If it ends up being you, don't despair. You already seem frustrated by only playing once per month, so find a second group that does enjoy the same style you do. If their style of game enmass is different then yours then you may need to meet them on there playing field and find an additional outlet for what you want. That's what I ended up doing. I still play with my original group of years, but I realized that the game for them over the years has become less about Role-Playing and more about getting away from the kids and having a few drinks without the day to day RL issues. I realized I still wanted a story, role-playing, and serious adventuring without "break-out" conversations interupting the game. So now I play once a month with another group of friends I looked up to do the "serious" game with. I'm enjoying the "less serious" game much more now I understand the "metagame" and have an outlet for what I want.

ENWorld is another outlet

Yea, it can be hard to find players, but its worth the effort. Check out the "Players Seeking Players" thread here in ENWorld. I'm not recommending you drop your players, just realize they are there to have fun also and you may need to let that group be, well... themselves.

Outline at the beginning of the session that NO ONE should tell the DM how to run a encounter

Indeed. Better is what some DMs do. Have a hand out at the beginning of the campaign that details your: house rules, world specifics, and table rules. Be up front, consistent, and enforce those rules. You have a right to enjoy the game as much as they do and they cannot complain if you are up-front with the facts and consistent.

You can compromise on style but you don't need to be frutrated by poor behavior. Drop the hammer. You'll feel better and so will they if they want to play and get to do to less interuptions.

Final advice after reading these threads.

1. Take a deep breath.
2. Go find a cool drink and enjoy it.
3. Say: "I will enjoy my game again!"
4. Come back and re-read Mordmorgan's and Wolf's posts again. They said it the best.
5. Start enjoying your game!

 

[DarrenGMiller]

Thanks Nightcloak. Two months ago, I wouldn't have posted what I did. I would have been the one asking for the advice (and often was).

Drop the hammer.

I call it "breaking the conestoga wagon."

You see, I am a teacher. During my first year of teaching, I knew an eighth grade social studies teacher with a last period class that gave meaning to the word incorrigible. He had, on his desk, a wooden conestoga wagon. It was the kind that was made of hundreds of tiny balsa wood pieces and took forever to build. When asked, he would tell how a student in one of his classes several years earlier had painstakingly constructed it for him and given it to him as a gift before moving on to the high school.

When his class got TOTALLY out of control one day, in a desperate attempt to regain control and re-establish some semblance of order, he hefted the fragile wooden model in the air and smashed it on the floor. Tiny wooden splinters went everywhere and the crash could be heard all over that part of the school.

The next day, my students told me of the incident (some of them had been present) and I took it upon myself to visit my co-worker and share my consolation over the loss of his treasured desk-piece. I will never forget what happened next. He told me, "Sometimes you have to break the conestoga wagon." With that, he unlocked a cabinet in his storage closet and opened a drawer for me to peek inside. What I saw shocked me. There were about four more identical wagons in the drawer.

DM