The Early Verdict (kinda long)

Doug McCrae

Legend
Orryn Emrys said:
My wife, for example, once wrote up a wizardess who was woefully inadequately prepared for adventuring. She was a research mage, her spellbook stocked with utility spells and very little that was designed for combat. Over the course of the game, she was forced to compensate with what she had, developing clever applications for her spells that aided the party in unconventional ways. Eventually, learning from her experiences, she became more combat-ready, approaching the development, acquisition and application of offensive and defensive magic with the scrutiny and efficiency of a researcher. It was fun.
Problem is, options that make your PC suck as an adventurer really screw over noobs and casual players.

A rules expert could handle the above character in 4e by devising stats to represent 'suck', then switching to a RAW wizard once the character had gained experience.
 
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helium3

First Post
Ydars said:
Then perhaps what many of us feel is wrong with 4E is that the PCs have become SOLDIERS and are no longer WARRIORS/adventurers. There is a sense that tactics and teamwork have overshadowed the individual and his heroism.

You know, I could almost agree with this statement. If it weren't for my personal experience, that is.

Generally speaking, when a player has wanted to run a character that does heroic stuff, it's more because he/she is a showboater and just wants the attention firmly on them. Not so much because they're trying to role-play a heroic character.
 

Dark Eternal

First Post
If I might pitch in, I'd have to say that the OP (who happens to be my DM) makes a lot of points that I agree with, but doesn't seem to make the points that are at the top of my head as I burrow into 4E... or if he does make them, they seem to have missed most of the responders to the thread.

I hadn't even made it halfway through my first trip into the 4E PHB before I heard a quote from The Incredibles in the back of my mind - "When everyone is super... no one will be."

This version of D&D feels like it's out to achieve that end, I fear. It's taking away things that maybe too many players have already given up, and so they don't notice. But the character whose shining moment in a session is a well-delivered one liner instead of a timely critical hit or perfectly orchistrated use of a daily power is just as important in my fantasy genre as those other guys are, and it seems like 4E's kicked him to the curb.

One or more people have asked what mechanics 3.x had to make social or policital encounters better than 4th, and my jaw gapes. You must be joking, right? How about the most maligned class by the power-gamers, the virtually unlamented absence from 4E - the Bard? A class that wasn't so combat useful and so was derided and ignored by hundreds of action-junkie players because he was designed to shine in social and political encounters ?!? And that's just for starters.

There's no doubt that 4E is an incredible game, and if you think I'm just here to bash it then you've probably already stopped reading. Too bad, because you'll miss me admitting that I love the things that 4E has accomplished in the areas it focused on. When we tried our obligatory one shot "test session" for the new edition, I was probably the most vocal doubter about where the game seemed to be going. And yet, when we started playing, I took my halfling Paladin straight over the top and not only had a blast but led the charge to get everyone else at the table to immerse themselves in the fantasy instead of the new game mechanics. And it was oh, so FUN!

But the problem is that this flavor of fun is NOT the end all and be all of fantasy role-playing, not to me. And I think that I have the gift of allowing everyone else at the table with me to enjoy all the other flavors that I like to experiment with, as well. So when I look down the barrel of a game system that's going to change my RPG from 31 flavors to vanilla, strawberry and chocolate, I'm a little bit unhappy. Doesn't mean I don't like those flavors, it just means that I'm not going to pretend that Mocha Chocolate Chip and Banana Mallow Delight aren't worth having anymore, either.

My club-footed dwarven sorcerer with the Scarlet Adder familiar that lived in his beard would never have been played if we had been playing 4E. Neither will my ideas for characters like a wizard who can only cast one spell but believes he can still become a mighty Magus by mastering that spell like no one's business, a cleric who devoutly worships the (possibly imaginary) Goddess of Forgetfulness and strives to strengthen her worship in the world by earning a reputation as a hero, or a runaway gnome who joins a party of adventurers in the hopes of convincing them to escort him on a journey around the world, since all he knows how to do well is build and fix agricultural equipment. They may not be characters you would want to see in your games... but then again, maybe if you'd played a few games with me and my DM you'd find yourself looking forward to them, too.

When you come down to it, I guess that whether character or player, people are mostly the results of their experiences. So I can't say if my opinion is going to have any significance to anyone else out there... but 4E is going to have to become a little less straight and narrow before it can accomodate the type of fantasy that I'm used to.
 

helium3

First Post
Ruin Explorer said:
I think Orryn is pretty much spot-on, having run 4E myself. I like the game, but I think at this stage in it's life, it is largely a one-tricky pony.

When a friend suggests trying a new restaurant, do you refuse on the grounds that you'll eventually get bored with eating their food?

If so, I can see that the OP's concerns might actually be a problem.

Otherwise, if a more tactics focused game like 4E sounds like a fun change of pace why not play it?

It's not like you can't switch to another edition (or game even!!) if you do get bored.
 

Orryn Emrys

Explorer
Doug McCrae said:
A rules expert could handle the above character in 4e by devising stats to represent 'suck', then switching to a RAW wizard once the character had gained experience.
Hmmm.... the 'suck' template. Has potential... ;)
 


Orryn Emrys

Explorer
helium3 said:
Otherwise, if a more tactics focused game like 4E sounds like a fun change of pace why not play it?

It's not like you can't switch to another edition (or game even!!) if you do get bored.
And I am! Playing it, that is. It is a fun change of pace.

But my players are accustomed to being able to approach my primary campaigns with the expectation that the game will last for years, that it will ultimately be the vehicle for their most memorable characters on their epic journey to higher levels and greater and greater stories... I take my obligation to them, to focus on making the game as rich and rewarding as possible, very seriously.

And I beg you to understand that we were very excited about the release of the new edition, with many of the issues it promised to address. I'm not saying it failed to meet our expectations, but I'm certainly going to examine it for long-term viability, given that Dungeons & Dragons is our game of choice, and most of us have been playing it for more than 20 years.
 

Khairn

First Post
Orryn Emrys said:
To be honest, I look forward to finding out. It's entirely possible that, any early reservations notwithstanding, 4E could quite simply be enjoyable enough to significantly transform my group's expectations. As it is, I fully intend to give it the chance. My current campaign is only barely underway, and I hope to see it last well into the Paragon levels, at the very least. And it certainly isn't the only 4E game we're going to play... my players have plenty of things they want to try out in other side games that we're tentatively planning.

Orryn, I feel your pain and am having the same challenges with the new edition. 4E combat is fun. But the depth and flexibility of character design and play style that I am used GM'ing just doesn't appear to be there. Maybe its just me, but I feel that I'll have to wait until more supplements and splats are available before I'll have the options needed to GM a game.

I'm still going to play the system as it is and try to push through, but for my own game, I just don't see the system being as flexible and complete as I'm used to.
 

Mallus

Legend
Dark Eternal said:
One or more people have asked what mechanics 3.x had to make social or policital encounters better than 4th, and my jaw gapes. You must be joking, right?
No. And I run a campaign where whole, well-regarded sessions have passed without an action sequence or fight.

- the Bard? A class that wasn't so combat useful and so was derided and ignored by hundreds of action-junkie players because he was designed to shine in social and political encounters ?!? And that's just for starters.
The presence of the bard class (or the Diplomacy skill) does not mean 3.5 had robust support for political/intrigue-heavy games. 'Robust support' entails more than that.
 

Cadfan

First Post
Dark Eternal said:
I hadn't even made it halfway through my first trip into the 4E PHB before I heard a quote from The Incredibles in the back of my mind - "When everyone is super... no one will be."
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that my enjoyment of my heroic character is dependent on you playing a character who is sub par in combat? Are you saying vice versa? Its been ages since I played in a campaign where someone was playing an intentionally gimped character. Everyone in my 3e games played characters designed for, amongst other things, combat effectiveness. Was I not having fun, and I just didn't notice?
Dark Eternal said:
This version of D&D feels like it's out to achieve that end, I fear. It's taking away things that maybe too many players have already given up, and so they don't notice. But the character whose shining moment in a session is a well-delivered one liner instead of a timely critical hit or perfectly orchistrated use of a daily power is just as important in my fantasy genre as those other guys are, and it seems like 4E's kicked him to the curb.
Why does it seem that way? Is there something about having a perfectly orchestrated use of a daily power that interferes with your quipping talents? Are you worried that people will forget about your quip and remember your daily power? What's the logic here.
One or more people have asked what mechanics 3.x had to make social or policital encounters better than 4th, and my jaw gapes. You must be joking, right? How about the most maligned class by the power-gamers, the virtually unlamented absence from 4E - the Bard? A class that wasn't so combat useful and so was derided and ignored by hundreds of action-junkie players because he was designed to shine in social and political encounters ?!? And that's just for starters.
Have you noticed that every character class in 4e has at least one social skill? The design intention was to make sure that every character can participate in social encounters, rather than having a "face man" who does all the social work while the rest of the party sits back and watches. Do you feel this is inferior design?
But the problem is that this flavor of fun is NOT the end all and be all of fantasy role-playing, not to me
.
That's fair as a general point.
My club-footed dwarven sorcerer with the Scarlet Adder familiar that lived in his beard would never have been played if we had been playing 4E.
Strictly speaking, no, he wouldn't, because there are neither familiars nor sorcerers nor clubbed feet. Is that what you meant?
Neither will my ideas for characters like a wizard who can only cast one spell but believes he can still become a mighty Magus by mastering that spell like no one's business,
True, because you get new spells for free and you can't assign spell slots. Is that what you meant?
a cleric who devoutly worships the (possibly imaginary) Goddess of Forgetfulness and strives to strengthen her worship in the world by earning a reputation as a hero,
Why couldn't you play this character?
or a runaway gnome who joins a party of adventurers in the hopes of convincing them to escort him on a journey around the world, since all he knows how to do well is build and fix agricultural equipment.
Why couldn't you play this character? I imagine he was an NPC in 3e, so he could stay an NPC in 4e.
 

ardoughter said:
I am running a group through The Keep on the Shadowfell and there has been plenty of rp both during the combat and in Winterhaven. I have not read all the rulebooks yet but there seems to me to be as much rp advice and so forth as anyother edition of D&D.

The reason you don't understand is that you are ignore my words and making up something that has nothing to do with what I'm saying whatsoever.

I mean, what in god's holy name are you talking about with "rp"? Where do I mention "roleplaying"? What the devil does "roleplaying" even have to do with my post? The answers are nowhere, and nothing, just to give a couple of spoilers. Read my actual post, not some imaginary post by some cretinous hate-machine who is aying "D&D4E sux man theres no rp!". That's not what I'm saying at all. There's no question that there's plenty of room for RP in D&D AND MY BLOOMIN' SIGNATURE says that I agree with you about the RP advice. Did you even read that? I need a faceplam smiley, bad.

I'm saying D&D4E is so mechanically tight and balanced, so focused on fair encounters, "correct" treasure, balanced, equal classes, on focusing almost all abilities in and around combat, and making combat super-tactical and so on, and on "fun over making deep sense" that it narrows the range of what it can do, if you use it as directed. This has nothing to with roleplaying. That's not the issue in the least. The issue is basic system design limitations. Limitations which of course can be overcome by ignoring them, but we're talking about now and the near-future, not several years down the road. Making this problem a little more worrying is the GSL which prevents people from modifying rules etc. thus preventing 3pp's from creating variants which are a little less obsessed with these things.
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
Ydars said:
3.5E could indeed be played as a highly tactical game, but it could also be played as a completely different kind of game where characters were not optimised for combat, but were characters to be played as characters. Because it had rules for everything, it could be played many different ways, much as earlier editions could.

My view is that optimization is taken care of for you, and that leaves you free to focus on your PC's character and personality.

Dark Eternal said:
One or more people have asked what mechanics 3.x had to make social or policital encounters better than 4th, and my jaw gapes. You must be joking, right?

When you considering Skill Challenges in 4e, you now have a mechanically-supported system to resolve political actions taken by the PCs in a way that a simple Diplomacy check never did.
 

helium3

First Post
Ydars said:
It is almost as if the party is now the focus, not the individual characters, at least in combat. I have tested the combat system and it plays very well, but there is something "not right" and I could not define it before.

I guess there is an association in my mind with a sophisticated sort of wargame. This type of game is great fun, but it is not an RPG. I am not saying 4E is a wargame, but there is an uncomfortable association that perhaps makes many of us unconciously uneasy.

I've never played a "big sandbox in a dude's garage" sort of wargame, nor have I played the D&D miniatures game. None-the-less, I don't think that 4E quite falls into the category of a wargame.

Here's the best explanation I can come up with.

In actual violent conflict, the tactical units that are the most effective are those that have a high degree of ability to work together as a team. Often, this requires that they know each other very, very well and have a fairly strong emotional bond with one another. You can't really make an effective fighting unit by throwing a bunch of highly skilled strangers together and telling them to execute the mission. On some fundamental level they don't really trust each other and can't anticipate each other's actions on the fly.

In 3E, it very much felt sometimes that the characters all just happened to be in the same place and fighting the same monster at the same time. The system itself seemed to encourage this by creating huge rewards for players that could think up twinky character builds. Essentially, while great for a more sim style of play, 3E was also a great system for anti-social prima donnas that didn't really care whether or not anyone else was playing beyond there being a cleric to heal them.

4E (what little of it I've played so far) seems to insist as a system that players work together in a way that people used to 3E just aren't familiar with. I'm having difficulty describing this difference beyond just saying that it requires the formulation of a good strategy before the encounter starts and the use of good on-the-fly tactics once the encounters starts and everyone starts "projecting power."

So yeah, combat encounters are definitely much more tactical and require players to think about what's going on and mentally engage. You don't want to take the option of "I hang back and do something sub-optimal" because that'll get the other character killed and you certainly can't be one of those players that does the whole "I'm helpless and refuse to learn how to play my character well" because (a) it's not hard to learn all the applicable rules now and (b) if you don't everyone dies.

And this is a good thing. Requring teamwork is AWESOME because it makes some of the more corrosive player behaviors that the hobby has long tolerated as typical "gamer behavior" a lot less tolerable.

Players that showboat, that lone-wolf, that don't pay attention or that simply refuse to play along are not going to like 4E and their groups are going to be a lot less willing to put up with that sort of behavior.

The only players I feel bad for are the ones that are only interested in roleplaying and are simply doing D&D because no one else wants to do anything but. Even then, the game's simple enough that they should still be able to contribute fairly effectively if another player has a lower level co-hort or something.
 

Cadfan

First Post
If I had a player who seriously, seriously wanted to play a combat ineffective character, I would

1. Make sure he REALLY WAS combat ineffective, and not just pretending, then
2. Adjust the difficulty of the encounters to assume a party of characters one smaller than I actually had. So if I had 4 competent characters, and a farm equipment repairmen, I'd make sure they fought encounters balanced for four PCs.
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
<mod>
Let's tone down the level of snark and sniping in this thread people, please.

You've been warned.

Thanks.


</mod>
 

Dark Eternal

First Post
Cadfan said:
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that my enjoyment of my heroic character is dependent on you playing a character who is sub par in combat? Are you saying vice versa? Its been ages since I played in a campaign where someone was playing an intentionally gimped character. Everyone in my 3e games played characters designed for, amongst other things, combat effectiveness. Was I not having fun, and I just didn't notice?

You are correct, sir. You don't understand my point.

Cadfan said:
Why does it seem that way? Is there something about having a perfectly orchestrated use of a daily power that interferes with your quipping talents? Are you worried that people will forget about your quip and remember your daily power? What's the logic here.

I believe that you and I are on different trains, Cadfan. If mine leaves the station heading south at 50 mph and two hours later, yours leaves the other station heading northeast at 34 mph, then how long will it be before you and I have any degree of common frame of reference?

Cadfan said:
Have you noticed that every character class in 4e has at least one social skill? The design intention was to make sure that every character can participate in social encounters, rather than having a "face man" who does all the social work while the rest of the party sits back and watches. Do you feel this is inferior design?

Inferior design? *sighs*
Look, you don't get it. I'm not here saying 4E is inferior to 3E. You may have legitimately gotten the impression I was, in which case I'd like to state for the record that 4E is not inferior to 3.xE. Both systems have their flaws, and ANY SYSTEM EVER MADE will likewise have it's flaws. It's just that the particular flaws I've bounced off so far with 4E do not inhibit people who want to play war machines. They do, however seem to inhibit people who want to play characters who triumph by ingenuity, wit and cunning rather than "apply power x to baddies 2,3 and 4 for the win!" Of course, you may not think that is the case. It may be different on your train. But that is what I see from mine.

Cadfan said:
That's fair as a general point.

Thank you. I do try to be fair as a general practice.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Cadfan said:
Have you noticed that every character class in 4e has at least one social skill? The design intention was to make sure that every character can participate in social encounters, rather than having a "face man" who does all the social work while the rest of the party sits back and watches. Do you feel this is inferior design?

Except for the ranger, anyway. So if it was an intentional point of the design, they missed one. Makes me wonder if it really was an intentional part of the design or rather a fortuitous accident that giving the fighter a social skill as a sop happened to leave only one class without a social skill as a class skill.

I'm not sure we can tell the difference between superior design but inferior execution and inferior design but better than expected execution in this case.
 

Orryn Emrys

Explorer
el-remmen said:
<mod>
Let's tone down the level of snark and sniping in this thread people, please.

You've been warned.

Thanks.


</mod>
*blinks*

I had wondered if I could start a very reasonable and well thought-out discussion without the thread earning a warning from the moderators. Your pardon, sir... it certainly wasn't my intention.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
Dark Eternal said:
They do, however seem to inhibit people who want to play characters who triumph by ingenuity, wit and cunning rather than "apply power x to baddies 2,3 and 4 for the win!"

Some actual evidence of this would be nice. Whenever I hear anyone say "This game prevents me from roleplaying," it usually comes down to "I'm having a failure of imagination."

What in 4th Edition prevents you from being cunning, witty, or ingenuous?
 

Derren

Hero
LostSoul said:
When you considering Skill Challenges in 4e, you now have a mechanically-supported system to resolve political actions taken by the PCs in a way that a simple Diplomacy check never did.

Too bad that Skill Challenges are broken (see math thread) and that they imo are more restricting than helping.
 

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