The Eastern taxonomy

loverdrive

Prophet of the profane (She/Her)
I think it's a useful framework to think, talk, and analyse games, so I don't see why not share it with westerners. You know the drill already, I hope: not prescriptive, rpgs are complex, all that jazz. And, yes, labels like "old" and "new" suck, as, say, Dogs in the Vineyard is almost twenty years old at this point, but I didn't choose them.

So.



There's

the Old School,
spawned from Kriegsspiel-style wargames. Y'know, not the kind of wargames where you field a Draigo deathstar (you can tell I'm like five years behind, can you?) barely painted in three colours to give you that sweet bonus points, no. The kind of wargames that look almost indistinguishable from RPGs, and if you're not listening closely, can easily be mistaken for one.

Old School is about players overcoming challenges through their knowledge of strategy, tactics, lore and, to at least some extent, ability to "read" the referee. The rules are simple, if not simplistic, but the large scope of the game allows for a great overall depth and a lots of small decisions add up over time — this is the reason why such games focus so much on "boring" stuff like counting torches, food and water — things that in, say, D&D 3E are often glossed over as unimportant.





That brings us to

the Mid School.
Mid School is also about players overcoming challenges, but in a very different way. Mid School adds another, "game" layer to, well, the game — character optimization, leveraging mechanical synergies between abilities, and all that jazz is much more important.

Say, in Moldvay's, there's no character optimization — you make exactly zero choices about your character's progression anyway, so there's nothing to optimize. Contrast it with D&D 3E, where picking the right class, the right race, the right feats, the right spells, the right magic items and then utilize all this stuff in the right way in the moment-to-moment gameplay are the key to achieving success.

Naturally, this often leads to "boring" stuff being discarded — first, because our capacity to process information is limited, and when you're already tracking a metric crapton of different things, tracking torches becomes burdensome. Second, because there already is depth, and large-scope things just aren't required — if you remove all the minutiae from Moldvay's, you'll end up with a very boring game that largely boils down to randomness, but if you remove it from 3E? You still have a reasonably solid game.

Another important difference is, well, characters: they are expected to have an interesting personality separate from the player on their own right from the get-go, as opposed to being the player's avatar rolled in two seconds. Mechanics for personality traits (like, say, Overconfidence disadvantage from GURPS) are not uncommon too, and, overall "what would my character do here?" is a more important question than "what is the best course of action here?", but, since there's still challenge, they're often at odds.





But what if we get rid of it? Welcome to

the New School.
Here, your skill at playing the game barely matters. It's not being tested, and playing smart doesn't influence the outcome that much. "What is the best course of action here?" and "what would my character do?" are the exact same question.

Think about this way:

  • Old school: you defeat the dragon because you've outsmarted the scaly bastard
  • Mid school: you defeat the dragon because you've created a strong character and smartly used all their strengths
  • New school: your character defeats the dragon because they've struggled and changed enough and it'be awesome if they won
Since everything works, and you aren't really solving problems, you're free to focus on portraying your character with integrity and you never have to choose between doing something cool and something effective — they're the same thing anyway.



I know you probably understand this already, but I'll highlight it: it's not a linear evolution from old to new, with each new iteration getting just plain better. That's not the point — different games serve different needs, but it's important to use tools that align with your goals. Trying to forge a neat story about a bunch of fascinating characters in, say, Moldvay's is bound to backfire when your hot-headed fighter will start a brawl that is impossible to win, just like going into Fate with a desire to get your planning skills tested is bound to be disappointing.



Хуй війні. Треба спалити москву.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Blue Orange

Gone to Texas
By 'Eastern' you mean 'Slavic'? (From your quote I am fairly sure you don't mean 'Russian'! Путін хуйло!) At least in the USA that implies 'Chinese/Japanese/Korean' by itself.

That said, this is a fascinating new typology. I don't know anything about the Slavic RPG world, apart from the recent success of 'The Witcher'.
 


dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
My game is popular in the east though I have not heard of these specializations, it is interesting, thank you.
 
Last edited:

Dioltach

Legend
Interesting take, and I definitely recognise the difference between "old school" and "mid school" (I still play 3.5 and variants, so anything after that is outside my experience).

But could we avoid the political slogans please?
 

aramis erak

Legend
I can honestly say that I NEVER encountered any of your "Old School" types until the 1990's.

I know they existed, but for many, Old School RPGing was borderline boardgaming or were explicitly minis wargaming. Including D&D, AD&D1E, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, and some of the adventures for Traveller, WFRP 1E...
We were never about "reading the GM"... we were about the push your luck and accomplish the module goal, within the resource limits.

We had story emerge, but the game was the key element, not the story. Personal bragging factor.

So, at best, it's a misnamed category. A category that will lead people to misunderstand other uses of the same label, because it's incongruent with that common lable and with the actual what was played back in the day. (I've limited my own "old school" to about 1984 and before - the point where skill based games were now dominating the non-D&D market, and D&D was introducing NWPs.)

The Free Kriegspiel style has been around a long time (1890's) in wargaming, but it was never dominant in wargaming outside the military, and it's looks to have never been the dominant mode in RPGing, at least not post 1976. It's a niche, an artefact that is much touted as having been prominent in "the good old days" but there's not enough evidence for that to have been true. (It's explicit that Kriegspiel was an influence on Weseley and Arneson, hence Braunstein, and eventually D&D. I don't recall mention of Frei Kriegspiel by either. Likewise, Ken St. Andre has implied being familiar with KS, but hasn't mentioned FKS.)

Note also: Frie Kreegspiel has had a revival growing out of the OSR - the OSR being another case where claims of uniformity in the past are 90% rose colored view. It's a perfectly valid mode of play... but the reactions to the rules back in the day were far from unified, and those who came to the game without being a player in someone else's game might be playing VERY differently.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I can honestly say that I NEVER encountered any of your "Old School" types until the 1990's.

I know they existed, but for many, Old School RPGing was borderline boardgaming or were explicitly minis wargaming. Including D&D, AD&D1E, Star Frontiers, Marvel Super Heroes, and some of the adventures for Traveller, WFRP 1E...
We were never about "reading the GM"... we were about the push your luck and accomplish the module goal, within the resource limits.

We had story emerge, but the game was the key element, not the story. Personal bragging factor.

So, at best, it's a misnamed category. A category that will lead people to misunderstand other uses of the same label, because it's incongruent with that common lable and with the actual what was played back in the day. (I've limited my own "old school" to about 1984 and before - the point where skill based games were now dominating the non-D&D market, and D&D was introducing NWPs.)

The Free Kriegspiel style has been around a long time (1890's) in wargaming, but it was never dominant in wargaming outside the military, and it's looks to have never been the dominant mode in RPGing, at least not post 1976. It's a niche, an artefact that is much touted as having been prominent in "the good old days" but there's not enough evidence for that to have been true. (It's explicit that Kriegspiel was an influence on Weseley and Arneson, hence Braunstein, and eventually D&D. I don't recall mention of Frei Kriegspiel by either. Likewise, Ken St. Andre has implied being familiar with KS, but hasn't mentioned FKS.)

Note also: Frie Kreegspiel has had a revival growing out of the OSR - the OSR being another case where claims of uniformity in the past are 90% rose colored view. It's a perfectly valid mode of play... but the reactions to the rules back in the day were far from unified, and those who came to the game without being a player in someone else's game might be playing VERY differently.
Good grief. @loverdrive is sharing how their RPG community, which has a different language and cultural view, discusses RPGs and you're saying it's misnamed and doesn't mean what you think it should mean. Step it back a bit.
 

gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
While I've played some war games like Battletech (many years later), and my first game of D&D was 1977, I didn't play regularly until 1980. So while the time before D&D is war gaming, I never played that (at the time), so to me Old School is no less map focused, than "current school" - whatever that label is. Maps and figs are important for combat, and much of the rest of the game can be played "theater of the mind". I don't think it's much different today in that way.

As a publisher, I didn't start publishing until Mid School, with my first venture with Pathfinder, and today publishing Starfinder. So I am familiar and understand the difference between Old and Mid School.

Because I have zero experience with New School, at least as you've explained it, and not imagining what I play now qualifies as new school - I can honestly say, I don't know what New School is, at least I haven't knowingly seen it to recognize it. And though I rarely play, versus running the game, I'm still a problem solver kind of guy, and you say that's Old School, well maybe so, but I don't know if I could play a game where my problem solving skills wouldn't fit somehow.
 



Remove ads

Top