The Editions Need a Better Nomenclature

If by dragonsfoot.org you mean "The community that refers to 3.x as THE EDITION THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED, thus comparing it to a Lovecraftian Great Old One," then I'd ask whether such folks are a reliable source of edition description information. ;)

Without deigning to defend their militant classicism, yes, I would say they know their old D&D backwards and forwards. I wish more people did. That's why I'm bringing up the subject. Maybe it would bridge some gaps and foster better understanding between grognards, n00bs, and everybody in between.

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Since I can't comment on D&D before 1992, I have to ask...

What is the major difference between the 1974 OD&D and Holmes basic?

Similarly, whats different between B/X (Moldvay/Cook) and BECMI (Mentzer) and the Rules Cyclopedia?

I'm under the impression its akin to the 3e/3.5 split; revisions rather than actual editions.
 

Similarly, whats different between B/X (Moldvay/Cook) and BECMI (Mentzer) and the Rules Cyclopedia?

I'm under the impression its akin to the 3e/3.5 split; revisions rather than actual editions.
I'm pretty sure that B/X is the "B" and "E" in BECMI (both the X and the E being for "Expert"). BECMI is a series of sets (PHB, DMG, MM) each covering a range of levels. Rules Cyclopedia is a single book compiling all these rules, but for space reasons leaves out a lot of explanatory text and for incompetence reasons introduces many typographical errors.
 

Similarly, whats different between B/X (Moldvay/Cook) and BECMI (Mentzer) and the Rules Cyclopedia?

I'm under the impression its akin to the 3e/3.5 split; revisions rather than actual editions.

The big difference that I recall is that B/X (Moldvay/Cook) only goes up to level 11 (I think), whereas Mentzer goes up to level 36 (I think). If I recall correctly, the Cook Expert rulebook refers to a future ruleset that will expand the game up to level 36, but the book never materialized; instead, the entire D&D (not AD&D) game was re-imagined in the Mentzer books.

However, having played in / run both "Expert" (i.e. Cook) D&D and "Rules Cyclopedia" D&D, I can attest that the actual differences are minor. The main thing is that the Rules Cyclopedia contains tons of stuff that never appeared in Holmes/Cook.

Whew.

Maybe we *do* need easier names for the editions...;)

EDIT: Moldvay Basic: Levels 1-3 / Cook Expert: Levels 4-14
 
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Since I can't comment on D&D before 1992, I have to ask...

What is the major difference between the 1974 OD&D and Holmes basic?

Lots of stuff.

The problem is that oD&D is a very weird beast. You have the original game, and then you have Supplement I: Greyhawk which utterly changed it. Seriously. If you play oD&D you've got something closer to Holmes, but once you add Greyhawk, you've got something a lot closer to AD&D.

Add in the fact that Holmes took elements from Greyhawk that he liked, invented his own initiative system, and also took ideas from the as-yet-unpublished AD&D (There is a 5-point alignment scale in Holmes, as opposed to 3-point in oD&D and 9-point in AD&D), and you have a very odd beast indeed.

Similarly, whats different between B/X (Moldvay/Cook) and BECMI (Mentzer) and the Rules Cyclopedia?

Not that much. The biggest difference are at the top levels of "Expert" (10-14) in the Cook edition, which were changed around a lot when Mentzer revised everything to fit in a 1-36 scheme.

Cheers!
 

I must admit, when I hear (or use) "Classic D&D", I think of everything pre-1987 -- OD&D, B/X, 1E AD&D -- that is, everything while Gygax was still with the company. The similarities in which were all stronger than between those and 3E, 4E, etc.

To me, Holmes represents the bifurcation point between the two game systems. It says (many times) that it's meant to jump you into AD&D. But it unintentionally spawned the whole B/X line with the edits it made. So in that respect to me it's "Classic D&D" in that it's shared by both lines.
 

I'm pretty sure that B/X is the "B" and "E" in BECMI (both the X and the E being for "Expert").

You are partially correct. The "B" and "X" in "B/X" are these books:
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The "B" and "E" in "BECMI" are these books:
becmi-b.png
becmi-e.png


They are NOT the same books, though the rules are very, very similar. But interior art, flavor text, and book layout is very, very different.
 


Holmes Basic is mostly an introductory set to OD&D, like the current D&D Starter Game Set is to 4E -- it only covers character levels 1-3, only covers dungeon adventuring (no wilderness, no castle-building or large-scale combat), and goes out of its way to actually explain how things work and why rather than just presenting the raw rules and leaving it up to the reader to figure out what it's all supposed to mean.

Why people consider it a separate edition from OD&D is because it was written and released during the transitional period when OD&D was being revised/expanded into AD&D and thus in several different places includes proto-AD&Disms that make it not quite compatible with OD&D -- there are spells on the Holmes spell lists and monsters on the Holmes monster list that weren't in OD&D but were in AD&D, the combat system in Holmes doesn't work quite the same way as the OD&D combat system (though for that matter it doesn't work quite the same as the AD&D combat system either -- what it's closest to actually appears to be "The Perrin Conventions"), and, perhaps most importantly, the Holmes set never refers the reader to OD&D for higher levels or more info, it always refers to AD&D (even though, at the time, AD&D hadn't actually been published yet, and when it was published wasn't nearly as compatible with the Holmes rules as OD&D was). So the Holmes set is really an odd orphan duck -- not quite OD&D, not quite AD&D, and not quite any of the versions of Classic D&D that came after.

As for the differences between B/X, BECMI, and the Rules Cyclopedia, it's mostly a matter of perspective. The Moldvay (1981) and Mentzer (1983) Basic Sets are ruleswise extremely similar (presentation-wise they're vastly different) -- the serious Moldvay- and Mentzer-ites at dragonsfoot can enumerate a handful of differences but they're all very minor (e.g. in Moldvay a magic-user or elf starts with 1 spell, it Mentzer he starts with 2 (read magic and 1 other)). The Marsh/Cook (1981) and Mentzer (1983) Expert Sets have more differences, because in the 1981 version character spells, saving throws, and abilities (thief skills, clerics vs. undead) essentially maxed out at 14th level, whereas the Mentzer version slowed down advancement to allow more room at the top -- so, from about 7th level on, Mentzer character abilities improve a bit slower than Marsh/Cook characters. Thus, while the Mentzer Companion (1984), Master (1985), and Immortals (1986) Sets could theoretically be used with the Moldvay and Marsh/Cook Basic & Expert Sets, you'd find some disparity as your 15th level Companion Set character has fewer spells, worse thief skills, worse saving throws, etc. than your 14th level Expert Set character did.

The Rules Cyclopedia (1991) reprints all the rules from the Mentzer Basic-Master Sets in a single volume, pretty much unchanged. The differences between it and the earlier version are that the advanced options introduced in the later Mentzer sets (such as the Druid and Mystic classes, the Weapon Mastery system, and the General Skills system) are included in the RC from level 1 (making for a more complicated game, and steeper learning-curve, right out of the gate instead of starting out simple and layering on complexity gradually), and that the Immortals rules were changed completely (in the product Wrath of the Immortals (1992)).

There aren't as many differences between any of these three versions as between AD&D 1E and 2E, or 3.0 and 3.5, but there are some differences (it's not like when TSR re-released the 2E books in 1995 with different art and layout but kept all the rules exactly the same) so, depending on how detailed you're getting in the conversation, or how much play you're actually doing, it is worth differentiating between them.
 

Holmes Basic is mostly an introductory set to OD&D...the Holmes set is really an odd orphan duck -- not quite OD&D, not quite AD&D, and not quite any of the versions of Classic D&D that came after.
While it's true that Holmes is sorta its own thing, I think there are a lot of factors that push it pretty firmly into the "OD&D" category:

  • Attribute bonuses. These are clearly derived from OD&D. Prime requisites, in particular, are completely unlike the AD&D or B/X approaches.
  • The equipment list matches Men & Magic almost verbatim.
  • Movement is handled like OD&D, with two moves per turn (e.g. a man in plate mail with a move of 6" explores 120 ft. per turn), rather than like AD&D or B/X.
  • Handling of traps, secret doors, etc. matches The Underworld & Wilderness Adventure, including details like traps only being sprung on a roll of 1-2.
  • Magic swords work like they do in OD&D, with the bonus applying to the "to hit" roll, only, and any "special" bonus applying to both "to hit" and damage. Thus, a sword +1, +3 vs. dragons is +3 to hit and damage against dragons, but only +1 to hit and +0 damage against everything else. Again, this is an OD&D distinctive.
  • Magic armor and shields work like they do in OD&D, with the bonus applied as a penalty to the enemy's attack roll, rather than modifying AC.

The Holmes initiative and combat sequence rules aren't like any of the editions. However, OD&D lacked rules for handling this (unless you count Chainmail), so all sorts of house-rules were used. The Holmes rules bear similarities to other OD&D house-rules for combat, including the Perrin Conventions and perhaps some of the rules from Judges Guild.

In general, the differences in Holmes strike me as being variants or house rules on a solid OD&D base. Some stuff, like the % to know spell table, looks like it was imported from AD&D (perhaps during Gary's editing process). Some stuff seems more like Holmes's own additions. And some of it could be traced to Supplement I, of course. In any case, I'd definitely call Holmes an OD&D variant.
 

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