The End of Rokugan d20

[Kae'Yoss]

The considered opinion of every Legend of the Five Rings fan I know - who have played both Second Edition "roll-&-keep" and d20 Rokugan games, as well as the CCG (just to establish their pedigree) is that Bloodspeakers is a puerile, sophomoric treatment of "evil" and, more to the point, completely lacks the Rokugan tone and flavour.

Nice. I would have found that useful prior to buying it last week

Haven't looked into it yet (got a bog back log of books to read), but I hope there will be useful material in it after all.

 

[Ranger REG]

IMO, they may find that their d20 dip attracted a loyal if minor following that aren't familiar with L5R mechanics and prefer d20.

Who's to say that the L5R Roll-n-Keep followers are not loyal? They've been there since their original version.

 

[ivocaliban]

My advice to AEG is to jam as much flavor and history as possible into the new books.

I don't think you'll have much to worry about here. AEG's material, both in L5R and 7th Sea didn't change that much when it went to D&D. The rules changed, but the attention to detail, depth of storyline, and engaging prose did not. The quality of flavor and history remains at a very high level whether you're reading L5R's The Way of the Crab or the dual-stat Secrets of the Crab...in fact, one makes the other more valuable.

I came to L5R when Way of the Dragon was released. I came across it in an RPG store and just started reading the opening fiction. I bought it immediately...knowing nothing about the system whatsoever...and the whole thing snowballed from there. The world of Rokugan was (and is) intriguing enough that I don't care what system it uses...heck, I'd want to read the books even if there wasn't a system.

I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fact that much of the metaplot of Rokugan is determined by a CCG, but I have to say the good that's come out of this far outweighs the bad. There are a few minor nitpicks I have about how everything which could happen in Rokugan seems to be happening within the past 30 years, but the way the writers are able to take the outcome of a card game and shape that into something with just as much (if not more) depth than many Forgotten Realms events...well, it really amazes me. It's also a testament to the creators that they still honor the origins of L5R/Rokugan as a CCG by doing something that's never been done successfully before...incorporating the two.

 

[Gaiden]

Who's to say that the L5R Roll-n-Keep followers are not loyal? They've been there since their original version.

I hope I didn't suggest that they weren't. I was only saying that the d20 Rokugan stuff was so good for the uninitiated (those not involved with L5R) that the new people they attracted I believe will be loyal to the world. I was not implying anything about the non-d20 followers.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm way too anti-TCG to think of such a marriage for L5R.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I've heard quite a few people complaining about the fact that much of the metaplot of Rokugan is determined by a CCG, but I have to say the good that's come out of this far outweighs the bad. There are a few minor nitpicks I have about how everything which could happen in Rokugan seems to be happening within the past 30 years, but the way the writers are able to take the outcome of a card game and shape that into something with just as much (if not more) depth than many Forgotten Realms events...well, it really amazes me. It's also a testament to the creators that they still honor the origins of L5R/Rokugan as a CCG by doing something that's never been done successfully before...incorporating the two.

Yeah, I'm one of those, and there's a simple reason for it. It's not the depth of the storylines I'm complaining about...it's the sense they make. Want an example?

The Scorpion Clan Coup: The whole thing is complete nonsense, from the storylines and characterizations they wrote up for the RPG. According to Way of the Scorpion, Bayushi Shoju wouldn't have made it out of Scorpion lands while wearing Ambition. They'd have shot him down like they did with the other two Scorpion clan daimyo who tried that stunt before him. And even if he had...he'd have stood alone in Otosan Uchi, not surrounded by his clan. And then the scene about Toturi. I mean, come on...the new Emperor, a young man who owes his life and throne to Akodo Toturi...and the first thing he does is behave like a spoiled 6-years old, ripping his greatest defender out of the Empire? Suuuure. And Yogo Junzo, a man who, from his description in the clanbook

has often considered what he would do if he was forced to compromise his duty, and has come to the conclusion that if the Scorpion must fall to preserve the Empire, then he will let the Scorpion fall.

is so griefstricken and insulted at the Emperor's treatment of the Scorpion clan in general and Bayushi Shoju especially, a man he "officially" despises for his weakness to rely on Bayushi Kachiko as a crutch, that he goes and does what?

In anguish over the death of Bayushi Shoju and enraged at the audacity of the Emperor to so dishonor such a man of vision by destroying his family and clan, Yogo Junzo violates his clan’s ancient duty and opens the first of the twelve Black Scrolls.

Huh? I'm sorry, it simply makes absolutely no sense at all when viewed from the point of the RPG. Just because the team of authors created a lot of fancy, flashy stories around the CCG tournaments doesn't mean they made any sense whatsoever in the RPG storyline. To be honest, in my eyes it was the worst decision that could have been made about how to develop Rokugan in the RPG.

But that's the fun part about being a GM. You can change what you don't like and erase what makes no sense.

 

[ivocaliban]

The Scorpion Clan Coup: The whole thing is complete nonsense, from the storylines and characterizations they wrote up for the RPG. According to Way of the Scorpion, Bayushi Shoju wouldn't have made it out of Scorpion lands while wearing Ambition. They'd have shot him down like they did with the other two Scorpion clan daimyo who tried that stunt before him. And even if he had...he'd have stood alone in Otosan Uchi, not surrounded by his clan.

It should be noted that those who wielded Ambition previously apparently did so for their own petty reasons. One sought to invade the Lion lands (the reason behind the act isn't given, but it's safe to assume the whispers of the bloodsword had something to do with it) and the other killed her father to assume his position. While it could be argued that Bayushi Shoju was just as ambitious as those two individuals he believed he was doing his duty to the Empire (differentiating the Empire from the Emperor) by initiating the Coup. The Scorpion clan had every reason to believe the prophecies Shoju uncovered were true...that Fu Leng and the last Hantei were one and the same...and so to stand aside and do nothing might have been neglecting the Scorpion clan's duty to protect the Empire at the cost of their own honor.

I'm not saying that Ambition had nothing to do with the Coup, because it obviously does. Bayushi Shoju heard the call of the blade like all the Scorpion daimyo before him, but he never acted upon it until the prophecy was revealed. Some might say that protecting the Empire was just a convenient excuse for him to unleash Ambition and try to take the throne for himself...but if you have read the Scorpion Clan novel you'll realize this is not the case. Not entirely. Bayushi Shoju truly believes in the prophecy and is concerned that the Empire may come under the control of Fu Leng. He sacrifices himself and his clan to try and keep that from occuring. Ultimately, he fails, but it's difficult to say what would have happened if the Scorpion hadn't acted and the Emperor/Fu Leng commanded an Empire where none knew the truth.

And then the scene about Toturi. I mean, come on...the new Emperor, a young man who owes his life and throne to Akodo Toturi...and the first thing he does is behave like a spoiled 6-years old, ripping his greatest defender out of the Empire? Suuuure.

Hantei Sotorii (the Last Hantei) is shown early on to be a brash, headstrong, spoiled little brat. Suddenly he's sixteen years of age, his father's been murdered, and he's in charge of the Empire. He's a sixteen year old boy with the power to do anything he wishes and he's prophecized to host Fu Leng in his very own skin. I'm likely to believe a teenager with absolute power possessed by a dark god might do just about anything. Besides, Toturi was off implanting his seed (Kaneka) in a geisha while he was supposed to be defending the throne. Again, the Clan War novels do a great job of pulling this stuff together.

And Yogo Junzo, a man who "has often considered what he would do if he was forced to compromise his duty, and has come to the conclusion that if the Scorpion must fall to preserve the Empire, then he will let the Scorpion fall" (Way of the Scorpion)...is so griefstricken and insulted at the Emperor's treatment of the Scorpion clan in general and Bayushi Shoju especially, a man he "officially" despises for his weakness to rely on Bayushi Kachiko as a crutch, that he goes and does what?

"In anguish over the death of Bayushi Shoju and enraged at the audacity of the Emperor to so dishonor such a man of vision by destroying his family and clan, Yogo Junzo violates his clan’s ancient duty and opens the first of the twelve Black Scrolls." (Official History of Rokugan)

Huh? I'm sorry, it simply makes absolutely no sense at all when viewed from the point of the RPG.

First off, you're taking a few things out of context here. First off, Yugo Junzo has a phobia of women (it's listed as one of his Disadvantages in Way of the Scorpion). In the same entry your quote was taken from it states that "Junzo had a great deal of respect for Shoju before Kachiko came along." The real problem here is that Junzo hates and fears women and Kachiko's nearness to Shoju taints him in Junzo's eyes. This is more of what I think of as "The Yoko Ono Effect" than a true hatred of Shoju on the part of Yogo Junzo.

In fact, it seems like Yogo Junzo idolized and revered Shoju before Kachiko's influence grew. Secrets of the Scorpion has this to say about Junzo: "Few remember his decades of loyal service to Bayushi Shoju... Junzo's devotion to his duty and his lord was unwavering, even when Shoju fell under the influence of Ambition, one of Iuchiban's Bloodswords." Way of the Scorpion also states that "Junzo sees his upcoming duty as a responsibility to Rokugan rather than to the Scorpion Clan." Bayushi Shoju's Coup was obviously not a smart move for the Scorpion clan, but for Rokugan and the Empire it would have been great thing had it suceeded. Fu Leng wouldn't be Emperor, at least. Sure, you'd have to deal with Bayhushi Shoju who was slowly being consumed by Ambition...but it's not Fu Leng himself.

Also, keep this in mind: Yogo Junzo's duty was to the Empire, but the Empire didn't see the sacrifice, only the "Ambition," behind Bayushi Shoju's acts. For that his clan and family was destroyed...and they weren't successful, they failed and were outcast. Sure, Junzo would be willing to let the Scorpion clan fall, but not at the decree of the very person (The Last Hantei aka Fu Leng) the Coup was engineered to stop.

And, lest we forget, there is the Yogo curse. Every Yogo is destined to betray the one person or thing he values the most. Yogo Junzo's opening of the Black Scroll betrays the memory of his daimyo (as Shoju was trying to keep Fu Leng from becoming Emperor), his family and clan (as it's been the Scorpion clan's and, in particular, the Yogo family's duty to protect the Black Scrolls), and his Empire (by furthering Fu Leng's cause).

Just because the team of authors created a lot of fancy, flashy stories around the CCG tournaments doesn't mean they made any sense whatsoever in the RPG storyline. To be honest, in my eyes it was the worst decision that could have been made about how to develop Rokugan in the RPG.

Well, I couldn't disagree more. I've seen plenty of authors create fancy, flashy stories around the ideas floating about in their heads that weren't nearly as intriguing as some of the material that came out of the CCG tournaments. I've never played the CCG and I've never owned any of the cards, but the RPG grew out of the the CCG and I'm glad L5R respects its origin.

I'm not saying I agree with or understand every plot twist and turn taken in Rokugan, but I feel the same way about Faerun in Forgotten Realms. I still feel that nothing has occurred in Rokugan that's more off the wall than The Time of Troubles...and that doesn't even have a CCG to blame.

 

[Treebore]

I agree that Rokugan is an awesome setting, and I am sorry to see the D20 support go away. However, I will be buying the D10 3E purely for the fluff, irregardless of whether or not I play L5R again (which I have, and liked it) or ever run a d20 game again. Simply because I know that I will eventually use it.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I'm not saying I agree with or understand every plot twist and turn taken in Rokugan, but I feel the same way about Faerun in Forgotten Realms. I still feel that nothing has occurred in Rokugan that's more off the wall than The Time of Troubles...and that doesn't even have a CCG to blame.

I guess it simply comes down to a matter of opinions about how the NPCs would/should/could have acted in the given circumstances, etc etc...to me, it doesn't make much sense. :\ And I agree, it's great that AEG got such a great RPG out of a very successful CCG...but I still hold that a storyline development that simply feels brilliant for the card game does not necessarily have to make the same impression on a roleplaying game derived from that.

But I'm not playing L5R for the "official" storyline anyway. That's there to give me a few ideas, but that's all. The main focus are my players' characters, and the history they create.

And I have to agree...there's few things that manage to top TSR's sometimes very apocalyptic scenarios.

I have to admit, I'm also one of those people who didn't think d20 a really fitting system to portray Rokugan...but that's a matter of taste.

 

[Ranger REG]

I agree that Rokugan is an awesome setting...

No objection. Unfortunately, it is the only currently popular asian setting, unless you count Sengoku (from Gold Rush Games).

In the d20 market, I like the variety it brings. Which is why I am disappointed that WotC didn't use Kara-Tur and just let AEG do their own version of L5R d20. At least you get two choices.