• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

The Essential Knight

TL;DR: Hang out with non-gamers some time.
Well, that's a pretty unfounded assumption.

I hang out with many people who aren't gamers. And even some who've never played a video game that didn't come pre-installed with Windows. Most of them don't have any interest in D&D. Most people who don't find the idea boring, vaguely unsettling, or even repellent are the ones who already game in one form or another. So I've had more luck getting people who've had a bout of "Final Fantasy Tactics" addiction to a gaming table.

BUT... I have had non-gamers try one edition or another out. Never seen one turned off by the complexity. In fairness, most of my non-gamer friends are academics of one stripe or another, so they're good at complexity.

However, I don't run exclusively with academics, either. I've also sprung D&D on home schooled farm boys who've never played a video game, a guy who spent 12 years running rafting trips in Colorado, and several members of a club hockey team. None of them were turned off by the complexity.

Incidentally, my 86 year old grandmother plays Flash games. That doesn't make her a "gamer."

I don't think it's so much an inability to understand, so much as a willingness to expend mental effort before you've decided if the game is even going to be something you want to keep doing.
Now this I've seen. People who just want to get started and don't want to deal with the front-loaded complexity of building a character before they even understand what most effects do in play. But you do that by pre-determining the starting state and slowly introducing options as they level. Throwing out the power system more or less entirely seems like a "baby with the bathwater" issue.

I rather liked the way they threw out some of the front-loaded complexity with the cleric builds, but left the guts of the system intact.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Now this I've seen. People who just want to get started and don't want to deal with the front-loaded complexity of building a character before they even understand what most effects do in play. But you do that by pre-determining the starting state and slowly introducing options as they level. Throwing out the power system more or less entirely seems like a "baby with the bathwater" issue.

I rather liked the way they threw out some of the front-loaded complexity with the cleric builds, but left the guts of the system intact.

I don't see them as throwing anything out... As long as they all work together I now see:

John the guy who likes to just get a character up and running gets his toys.

Bob the guy who likes a little bit more complication in character gen gets his toys...

And Steve the power gamer searching for the perfect power combinations gets HIS toys...


Everyone gets what they want.

I'm fine with that, provided it all works well together.
 

First of all, thank you Mr. Mearls for answering questions. Some of the things you have said have done a lot to allay some of my concerns.

I think I've seen enough of the Essentials classes to definitively ban them from my table. I'm not a fan. The elegance of the 4E system is what sold me so completely on it, and I have no interest in going back to an older, simpler style, or dealing with the balance issues arising from mixing Essentials with Original 4E. Overall, I think 4E is the best balanced system I've ever run. Maybe Essentials is for some people, but it's not for me.

I think that my main problem with the system is the marketing behind it. If Essentials were marketed as D&D Starter or D&D Basic, I would have no problem, because it would be understood as a system for people just getting into the game that's a little bit simpler and easier to use. As it is, the intent seems to be to produce regular products with support for both systems, but I have no desire to pay full price for a book that's half-filled with another system I won't use. This is a problem to me. The analogies put forth about a restaurant menu are fairly apt, but they actually argue against the viewpoint of most people using it. There's a good reason why the finest restaurants have very small menus, or even no menu at all (This is what's for dinner. You'll love it.). It's because splitting focus among too many dishes means not as much attention to detail is spent on each type of entree. The chefs aren't as good at each entree, and the production isn't as easy to quality control. Sure, you can expand the kitchen and employ more chefs, but with increased size comes complexity in the organization, and suddenly you're either introducing more problems into the process due to the difficulty of training and managing so many people, or you're serving a poorer product. Try eating at a restaurant with a very short menu. You'll thank me for it. I worry that supporting two different menus of classes will reduce the overall quality of product coming from WotC. I know they intend to try to keep everything balanced and not to let either line suffer. I just don't think they (or any other RPG company) can do it.

As to the "4E is too hard for some people" theory... honestly, the easier systems are great for people just getting into the game, especially if it's some kids in junior high that have never had exposure to a real gaming group before. But if I had someone in my group that couldn't grasp 4E after repeated sessions, I'd think about not gaming with them. The system isn't hard. If they can't figure out that 2d8 is more than 1d8, they probably won't be able to understand the story that we're trying to tell anyway.

And finally, I don't think that what we've seen of the Essentials classes achieves their goals of simplicity. Most of the complexity of the 4E fighter is still there in the knight... it's just disguised with a new coat of paint. Now with the stances we're pretending that they make melee basic attacks only. Great.

Ultimately, Wizards correctly observed in the past that having multiple editions of the game out simultaneously split the fan base and was not as profitable. They also realized the problem of introducing radical changes to an edition before the fanbase feels that the edition has had its natural life cycle. With Essentials, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. Just saying it's not "4.5" doesn't make it so, when the changes are arguably more intense than the 3.5 ones were from 3.0. Just saying that it won't split the fanbase doesn't make it so when there are two different sets of classes that do the same thing in radically different ways, and when support is going to be split between them.

With no malice intended towards the designers, I hope that Essentials dies a quiet death, and we can all move on with the cool things still waiting to be released for 4E.

Why is Essentials so interesting around here? Here's why, for over two years, a lot of us assumed that 4e was going to be on the numbered supplement book for a good long while. I was sure that there was going to be a an Arcane Power 2, and Divine Power 2, a Primal Power 2, to go along with Martial Power 2 this year. Until I learned otherwise, I thought that DMG 3 was going to make my September. That perception has changed, however, by the fact that Heroes of the Fall Lands isn't just a reprint book with maybe some new powers. Actually, it started with the announcement that this year's campaign setting is Dark Sun. The the product schedule was filled with Gamma World and Beginner's books.

Now those beginner's books have some great ideas in them. For years, Wizards has been putting out beginner's sets with pre-generated PCs a short adventure, and some rules with short "buy the PHB, DMG, and MM to continue the fun!" and now, that's not the case. And it's very interesting.
That's a perfect encapsulation of why I'm so disappointed. I see a year full of products that I have no interest in because D&D is veering off an a weird beginner/oldschool/CCG boardgame tangent. I liked 4E so much specifically because it rejected that stuff. And a CCG boardgame is an abomination of Lovecraftian proportions.
 
Last edited:

But there is nothing hinting, that it is 4.5... it seems quite comparable to the *updated* core rules.

Also when i tried to explain 4e to non D&D roleplaying gaers, i felt a bit at loss how to explain martial recharging powers... so i will totally use essentials to lure in newer players and players that don´t like to make meaningfull choices *before* actually playing the game. (I wished all classes (except the mage) would start with more or less predertimined at wills and encounters and choices should be made during the game and while levelling up.
 


Eh

I am smelling a whole lot of rancid ricotta about Essentials.

Tell me this, when is Arcane Power 2 coming out?

If it isn't, tell me why the hell I'm supposed to believe that Essentials isn't 4.5e?

Mod Edit: Folks, if we can tell what you're saying, it is still profanity, and we're running a family friendly joint here.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Everyone gets what they want.
Not quite.

I wanted a set of pick up and play characters that introduce depth at a point after character creation. They seem to have delivered that for the cleric AFAICT, but not for the Fighter, and I don't think they did for the wizard, either, but I'm waiting to see more before I make that call.

This is a relatively small complaint, granted. But I have an old irritation with the "Fighter = simple" mindset that I thought 4e had put a bullet in. Turns out that stupid trope is undead. :erm:
 

I am smelling a whole lot of stuff about Essentials.

Tell me this, when is Arcane Power 2 coming out?

If it isn't, tell me why the hell I'm supposed to believe that Essentials isn't 4.5e?
Easy one:

when it is done... ;)

maybe it as delayed,maybe we get some great builds in it, maybe we will see a players opton with its content in... i don´t know, but actually i don´t believe they drop this series.
 
Last edited by a moderator:


Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top