The Ethics of the Banshee

[Greenfield]

I just ran a brief scene for part of my group (some wanted to play on the 4th of July holiday, some couldn't.)

The entered an area where the land seemed blighted, even by the standards or our "no sunlight" world.

They investigated, after securing a place to stay in a way station (fortified truck stop), which means it was just about sunset. (They'd traveled all day.)

First they were set upon by Ghouls, which at their level don't count as even speed bumps. But, in trailing the ones that ran away, the party Ranger/Druid found a ruined house, with the insides burned out. He heard the sounds of other things skittering inside.

Scouting around, he found a ruined graveyard, partially washed out by storms. The Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Thurge decided to throw Consecrate on the remains of the cemetery, and used Sudden Widen to expand the effect into the house.

That's when the Banshee struck. She was somewhat afraid of a sizable party, one that had scattered and destroyed the lesser undead so easily. She'd held off, scouting for weakness. Then they Consecrated part of her home.

A Banshee can "Wail" as a 60 foot emanation, centered on her, or as a 120 foot cone effect she can direct. The effect can be repeated after a D4 rounds, and making the Save once doesn't grant you any immunity to the next scream. Fail a DC26 Fort save, and you're dead. She's CR 17, same as my party.

When they tried to Consecrate part of her home, she screamed. Of the three, the weakest Fort save was the Wiz/Cleric/Mystic Thurge. The strongest was the Ranger/Druid. His Tiger was probably pretty high on the list as well.

Now, since Murphy loves irony, you can guess what happened next. The Wiz/Cleric/Thurge rolled an 18 on her dice, making the DC26 Fort save by two points. The Barb3/Wiz13 rolled a 19, making the Save by three. The Druid/Ranger rolled a 5 and dropped dead. His Animal Companion (a Siberian snow tiger) rolled a 9 and dropped dead as well.

Now, no matter how you lay the groundwork for a scene lie this, unless you explicitly *tell* the players what they're getting into, it seems pretty cold to "say hello" with an effect that could be a party TPK, before they even know there's an enemy there.

I bent a rule, and pointedly didn't look at the description of Revivification that says it worked like Raise Dead, without level loss, if cast within a round of death. Raise Dead can't raise people killed by Death effects.

I let them raise him with it. I even bent the rules a bit to let them use Revenence and Revivify on the Tiger.

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

Depends on the campaign. If the game up to that point has been one where the PCs are expecting to win every encounter, even if just barely, then its probably not fair.

If the players are used to encountering things they can't handle by pure combat, then its OK by me.

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

A banshee is intelligent undead, and should be played up to its level of intelligence.

If she's expecting an ally to appear, but she is unsure of said ally's actual appearance, she might hold back.

But if she is facing a foe whom she knows to be powerful, there's probably no good reason to hold back a powerful alpha strike- she might not survive to try it later.

 

[Rakusia]

Scouting around, he found a ruined graveyard, partially washed out by storms. The Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Thurge decided to throw Consecrate on the remains of the cemetery, and used Sudden Widen to expand the effect into the house.

you did tell them. i am assuming you had the banshee pre planned in the house? if not it would be kinda bad but still. if the players didnt even bother to send the pet into the house to investigate while remaining somewhat safe themselves then i think its their fault for poor forethought. again though it runs into how often are they hit with surprises like that. if this is the first time theres been monsters hiding it could be taken as trying to tpk. even if they were fighting her in the open though. say she came out as they were fighting the ghouls. same thing could have happened before they could buff their saves. honestly the big reason i dont like to use monsters with death effects. no reason they wouldnt use them first, and no reason the players will just accept the death of their character.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Did the ranger report back to the party and say anything about what he saw or heard? I'd probably give them the check (with super secret DM modifiers) to figure it out.

Otherwise, I'd play the Banshee as an intelligent creature. They completely steamrolled her ghouls so she may try to tell them to leave. If they refuse then open up with a wail.

If that seems too devastating, I was in a group that added a second safety net for things like death effects. If you failed your save, roll 1d10 that's what you were at in negative HP. If you rolled a 10 you died.

 

[Umbran]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

"Fair" doesn't have much to do with it, to be honest. "How much FUN is it?" is the better question. For some players, this is fantastic stuff. For others, this would be very unfun. Know your players.

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

That depends upon the psychology of the banshee - tactics are dictated by goals. If her only goal is "kill them all", then it makes sense. By CR, she probably cannot beat them in a knock-down, drag out fight.

However, she's an intelligent, CR 17 undead, right? She should *know* that the Consecrate is not permanent under normal circumstances. If she hides out, it, and the adventurers, should go away eventually. So, does she really have a compelling reason to attack, rather than hide out and hope they miss her?

 

[Empirate]

What you're describing is in fact a general problem with high-level play. So many creatures have extremely powerful alpha strikes, and of course PCs do, too, that the game is fittingly described as "rocket tag" at that point.

Some would argue that a level 17 party entering a graveyard and not taking precautions against death effects are begging to get killed. Others would argue that level 17 characters have no business NOT checking out everything with divination magic first, before going there in person. Heck, a Detect Evil or Detect Undead would probably have warned them enough that there is a more powerful foe than just Ghouls hanging out here. Finally, a DC 26 Fort save is something that level 17 characters are expected to pass on a regular basis, so if any effect with that save DC is giving the party a hard time, it might be said that they're much in need of stepping up their game.

On the other hand, your game seems a little more carefree, or at least not that into optimization and all the metagame stuff, to me. The PC builds you mentioned seem downright silly from an optimization standpoint (while probably making a lot of good sense where the characters are concerned). Therefore, playing high-level D&D as rocket tag seems to be right off the table. Sure, some rocket tag is built into the system, and you just ran into an excellent example of that.
However, it doesn't have to be that way. If the players rarely encounter potentially campaign-ending abilities in the surprise round, and if they don't use alpha strike techniques (like celerity/arcane-fusion novas, scry-and-die, white raven tactics spam etc.) themselves, a Banshee turning up out of nowhere and wailing them to death might come as a surprise, and a bad and unfun one at that. So think about the style of your game, and what's usual and what isn't, just like other posters have already stated.

Finally, some metagame/DMing concerns: a Banshee is such a powerful monster, and such an iconically deadly foe, that some rumors would have cropped up in the region. Its dwelling place ought to be something quite out of the ordinary. You said that the area looked unusually blighted, but adventurers encounter that every day. Have you made sure to bring across how powerfully unholy the place was? Maybe you gave the players lots of clues; maybe you didn't. Maybe they just decided to ignore good advice. But I think opening up with Ghouls, at least, was the wrong step, and ultimately contributed to your players' relative carelessness. Ghouls just make it look like this was ye olde undead-filled graveyard, nothing to worry about at their level. And straight after a bunch of CR 1 monsters, a CR 17 opponent gets a surprise round on the PCs - that kind of "pacing" can result in really nasty backlash.

 

[Li Shenron]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

Totally gamestyle-dependent!!

In an old-school high-lethality D&D game, players have a lot of fun seeing each other's PCs "die creatively" (ie at least not always by a boring weapon strike) and should have no problem with a death effect, if the DM spice it up with good gory descriptions. This is a little bit like watching a horror/splatter movie: the audience want to see the characters die, the only enemy being lack of variety.

In an immersive RP and/or tactical D&D game, players want to see their PC live, because they want to develop something about them (story or tactics or both), and death gets in the way. PC death is usually accepted only if it actually improves the PC's story, such as the PC sacrificing herself for the rest of the group, or better the rest of the world. This is like watching your favourite TV series: you don't want the interesting characters to leave the show, you always want to see what happens next to them. In this kind of game, anything that kills a PC without a chance for the player to prevent that, is anathema, and is going to cause the players to hate the DM.

So, do you know your own gamestyle?

Sounds like a stupid question but IMHO most problems here happen because people in fact haven't thought about this before starting a game of D&D, or are undecided about which style to play.

I would suggest to talk about this asap with your group, and see if you are all on the same line. Then make a decision on which style to play. And remember, that even if you prefer one style, there is no reason why you can't play another style just to adapt to the rest of the group, there is always time for a different campaign later on!

 

[the Jester]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

Absolutely fair.

No, no reason.

Here's the thing: If you are uncomfortable with the possibility of a surprise-mass-death, you probably should use a different monster.

 

[Ahnehnois]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

Is there any reason a Banshee wouldn't use that as her opening salvo?

It's absolutely fair. A banshee is a high-level challenge. If you just use it to murder a low-level party that cannot fight it, that's kind of BS. If you use in an appropriate situation, it should use its main ability effectively. D&D is a dangerous game.

 

[billd91]

Finally, some metagame/DMing concerns: a Banshee is such a powerful monster, and such an iconically deadly foe, that some rumors would have cropped up in the region. Its dwelling place ought to be something quite out of the ordinary. You said that the area looked unusually blighted, but adventurers encounter that every day. Have you made sure to bring across how powerfully unholy the place was? Maybe you gave the players lots of clues; maybe you didn't. Maybe they just decided to ignore good advice. But I think opening up with Ghouls, at least, was the wrong step, and ultimately contributed to your players' relative carelessness. Ghouls just make it look like this was ye olde undead-filled graveyard, nothing to worry about at their level. And straight after a bunch of CR 1 monsters, a CR 17 opponent gets a surprise round on the PCs - that kind of "pacing" can result in really nasty backlash.

I always wonder about this sort of thing when PCs get trashed because they are unprepared or suffer a surprising TPK. I suspect foreshadowing is an element underused by a lot of DMs, particularly for semi-prepared game nights and quick scenarios. Banshees don't have a reputation for living a quiet life. No matter the site, a powerful and noisy undead should probably generate a lot of local rumors and stories. They could have easily tipped the PCs off about the nature of the threat. At that point, they either go in protected against death effects or they leave themselves vulnerable, trusting to fortuna (which, as we learned, can be a fickle mistress).