I've played games where character death was treated well and it lead to an even cooler quest where we had to find a cleric who could cast the resurrection and find the component parts. to leave the dead player out is kinda a bummer but you can have him doing a side quest or some kind of interaction as a spirit. our healer died once and he was a cleric of heironeaus so dm ran an encounter for him having a talk to his deity. death in DnD is rarely permanent, that doesn't mean it should have no impact. I agree with just bad rolls and if in game you can justify giving them a pass its okay once. just remember it sets a bad precedent, what happens when another player dies? well, you let johnny revive no problem why not me? dm is playing favorites
The Ethics of the Banshee
- Thread starter Greenfield
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
Sure, but if you rule on the fly that a monster, which by the book has deadly ability X, instead doesn't have it (or has a gimped version of it) rather than doesn't use it, then the monster is still fighting at its best, so you are indeed being fair and impartial.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
I did this once to my party. They TPKed.
It wasn't a complete surprise though, much like your setup I told them they were entering what looked like the ruins of the an ancient elven city, just barely notable above the muck as it was then a massive bog. I started up with simple ghosts, setting the scene that THERE WILL BE GHOSTS of all sorts. Even threw in a good perception check would allow them to pick up on the sound of distant wailing.
Well they decided to make camp in the largest standing structure, the ruins of some sort of ancient church. Well, you guessed it, after a few ghosties showed up, they awoke the banshee, actually, greater banshee(the party was still on-par challenge wise), so it was fair sense that she had some sort of tactics and obliterated the party with her wail.
I retconed the event though, told them all it was just a case of nightmares.
Is it fair? Heck yeah it's fair! Especially if you go through the trouble to set it up. But it's still pretty cruel.
It wasn't a complete surprise though, much like your setup I told them they were entering what looked like the ruins of the an ancient elven city, just barely notable above the muck as it was then a massive bog. I started up with simple ghosts, setting the scene that THERE WILL BE GHOSTS of all sorts. Even threw in a good perception check would allow them to pick up on the sound of distant wailing.
Well they decided to make camp in the largest standing structure, the ruins of some sort of ancient church. Well, you guessed it, after a few ghosties showed up, they awoke the banshee, actually, greater banshee(the party was still on-par challenge wise), so it was fair sense that she had some sort of tactics and obliterated the party with her wail.
I retconed the event though, told them all it was just a case of nightmares.
Is it fair? Heck yeah it's fair! Especially if you go through the trouble to set it up. But it's still pretty cruel.
Jacob
Explorer
In terms of the scenario, the only thing I believe you did wrong was fudge on the ruling of raise dead. The challenge was proper, you laid the trap, and you sprung it in a way most frightening. So you the messed up how they could deal with the consequences a bit. In the end, that doesn't really matter. I once had my PCs fight against Zargon from the Elder Evils book, and while he's supposed to be immune to mind-effecting abilities, the battle ended the moment irresistible dance was cast on him. I realized my error later, but in the end the party still had a good time...as did yours. The ruling may have worked in their favor, but as long as the outcome is achieved, you done good. Plus you have to admit a dancing mound of tentacles is rather hilarious. 
Greenfield
Adventurer
Well, we played today.
The missing players were present, so they had the full complement: Ranger/Druid, Barb/Wiz, Fighter/Rogue/Dervish, Wiz/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus, Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer, Fighter/Cleric, Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Thurge.
They decided to equip themselves as best they could at the rural trading post they had available. "Nope, no high level spell Clerical scrolls available, high level casters are hard to find, but if there was one who could scribe those high end Clerical scrolls, there would be a good market", he said to the high level Cleric/Wiz who could prepare their own high level scrolls.
"Yeah, I have bee's wax", the merchant said to the Barb/Wizard. "But if you need to be temporarily deaf, I have Thunderstones." They paid the few coppers for candles, but didn't want to spend the GP for Thunderstones.
There was absolutely no time pressure. They could have scribed scrolls and prepped for days if they wanted, but were in a hurry.
I ruled that blocking their ears with wax would give them a 5 point penalty to all Listen checks, but a matching bonus to their Fort saves v the Banshee screams.
They went in, found the way down to a root cellar, and encountered a non-corporeal undead. It hissed at them to leave, but didn't attack. The Druid threw Radiance again and drove the thing away, but it spoke once more before it left. "You were warned!". (Wraiths have Diplomacy as a skill.)
So they went downstairs to the lower levels. The Druid cast a Treasure Scent spell that told him something valuable was ahead and to the right. They left the room and turned right, and saw what looked that same spirit. "You were told to leave", it advised. PC responds, "We could leave now." It says, "Too late now."
PC tries to reason, asks why. The spirit (nobody has even attempted a Knowledge Religion roll to identify the type) says, "I can't tell you, but I can show you.", and becons the character forward, directing him to look into an open doorway. A second Wraith waits there, and attacks at once.
The Dervish fighter has a good AC, and an insane Non-Corporeal Touch AC, and the thing missed. Then the Ghouls charge in from a side chamber. Short battle, very one sided, and my monsters are gone.
They find a jeweled septer, looking like it just came from the workshop, and then start poking around some areas where they can tell there's a room, but no door.
They find a secret door but can't open it.
Would you believe that with a 15th through 17th level party, the rogue types think that a 20 Open Locks or Disable Device check is going to get them anywhere? By the book, simple locks and traps start at DC25.
Finally, someone throws Knock, and the wall pivots to show the room. Fairly nice. A wine rack that must have held 20 bottles. 20 empty bottles on the floor. A cabinet that probably held weeks worth of rations, now empty, And the decayed remains of a dwarven female on the bed. Visiting lady of importance who was there when an attack came. They ushered her into the "Panic room" until it was safe, and she didn't know how to open the door to get out. She died slowly of thirst and starvation when no one came to release her.
At that moment the Banshee put in her appearance, screaming "Leave that alone!".
Half the party dropped.
One PC had an odd deal, a favor from a Devil. He called it in with his dying breath. (He owes services in return.) The Devil was delighted to find the person who was in his debt dead, and was ready to take him away, but the PC reminded him that services were still owed, and asked for help. The Devil offered to either raise the fallen "on borrowed time" (meaning a Revenance spell that would bring them back for a certain number of minutes, then let them die again), or he could give them a second chance. Second chance was the call, and so everyone who failed got a re-roll. The Cleric, the one who could help people directly? She had failed the first time. She failed the second time. Yet another debt was incurred, and people got a third try at that save. She failed the third time as well.
The Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer, seeing tge Devil there, offered a deal of his own, incurred a debt, and got some protection from the negative energy effects.
He moved to the bed to burn the body, thinking that would do some good. The Banshee screamed that that was her favorit dress, and from that point on focused everything she had on that character. So he kept her busy while the party ran, grabbing bodies where they could.
Once the Druid reached the top he pulled out a Quall's Feather Token and conjured up a tree. People gathered, and he aimed them for a similar tree near the fortress they had come from, where they knew a Healer awaited. The question was, do they wait for the guy playing tag with the Banshee? They decided to wait.
Every time he tries to dodge around corners to escape her, she just goes through the walls and comes straight at him. His protection is rapidly being eaten away, but he's making progress towards the exit.
He hits the top of the stairs, running as fast as he can. Her Initiative is right behind his. It's been four rounds, so she can Scream again. He reaches the Druid, the Druid calls his Readied Action, and the party vanishes off the field a split second before she kills them all with that scream.
The player of the Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdance tries to say that they defeated her, or at least the challenge, by escaping with the dead bodies of their friends.
I suggested that I'd be generous and give them half Exp. They thought that was more than fair. For most it turned out to be less than they would have earned if we'd just given book standard for an RP session/challenge (50 per character level).
Afterwards, when they're licking their wounds, we discussed what had gone wrong (aside from everything).
1) They acted as if they had to do this *now*, with no time to prep.
2) They ignored the relatively sensible advice to prepare the scrolls, or use the Thunderstones.
Now at this point they have an extremely pissed off undead. They disturbed her grave, stole the scepter she had died trying to get, burned her body (and her favorite dress), end then escaped. And, unlike many other undead, she isn't bound to one physical place or thing. She's free to pursue them to the ends of the earth.
So I hand over the game to the next DM with a relatively clear conscience. He gets a mostly intact group, and more plot hooks than you can shake a stick at: One PC owes three services to a Kyton and/or his master, a second one owes a single service, a scepter that may or may not be important to some Dwarven clan, and a seriously ticked off high end undead that wants them all dead.
My work is done.
The missing players were present, so they had the full complement: Ranger/Druid, Barb/Wiz, Fighter/Rogue/Dervish, Wiz/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus, Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer, Fighter/Cleric, Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Thurge.
They decided to equip themselves as best they could at the rural trading post they had available. "Nope, no high level spell Clerical scrolls available, high level casters are hard to find, but if there was one who could scribe those high end Clerical scrolls, there would be a good market", he said to the high level Cleric/Wiz who could prepare their own high level scrolls.
"Yeah, I have bee's wax", the merchant said to the Barb/Wizard. "But if you need to be temporarily deaf, I have Thunderstones." They paid the few coppers for candles, but didn't want to spend the GP for Thunderstones.
There was absolutely no time pressure. They could have scribed scrolls and prepped for days if they wanted, but were in a hurry.
I ruled that blocking their ears with wax would give them a 5 point penalty to all Listen checks, but a matching bonus to their Fort saves v the Banshee screams.
They went in, found the way down to a root cellar, and encountered a non-corporeal undead. It hissed at them to leave, but didn't attack. The Druid threw Radiance again and drove the thing away, but it spoke once more before it left. "You were warned!". (Wraiths have Diplomacy as a skill.)
So they went downstairs to the lower levels. The Druid cast a Treasure Scent spell that told him something valuable was ahead and to the right. They left the room and turned right, and saw what looked that same spirit. "You were told to leave", it advised. PC responds, "We could leave now." It says, "Too late now."
PC tries to reason, asks why. The spirit (nobody has even attempted a Knowledge Religion roll to identify the type) says, "I can't tell you, but I can show you.", and becons the character forward, directing him to look into an open doorway. A second Wraith waits there, and attacks at once.
The Dervish fighter has a good AC, and an insane Non-Corporeal Touch AC, and the thing missed. Then the Ghouls charge in from a side chamber. Short battle, very one sided, and my monsters are gone.
They find a jeweled septer, looking like it just came from the workshop, and then start poking around some areas where they can tell there's a room, but no door.
They find a secret door but can't open it.
Would you believe that with a 15th through 17th level party, the rogue types think that a 20 Open Locks or Disable Device check is going to get them anywhere? By the book, simple locks and traps start at DC25.
Finally, someone throws Knock, and the wall pivots to show the room. Fairly nice. A wine rack that must have held 20 bottles. 20 empty bottles on the floor. A cabinet that probably held weeks worth of rations, now empty, And the decayed remains of a dwarven female on the bed. Visiting lady of importance who was there when an attack came. They ushered her into the "Panic room" until it was safe, and she didn't know how to open the door to get out. She died slowly of thirst and starvation when no one came to release her.
At that moment the Banshee put in her appearance, screaming "Leave that alone!".
Half the party dropped.
One PC had an odd deal, a favor from a Devil. He called it in with his dying breath. (He owes services in return.) The Devil was delighted to find the person who was in his debt dead, and was ready to take him away, but the PC reminded him that services were still owed, and asked for help. The Devil offered to either raise the fallen "on borrowed time" (meaning a Revenance spell that would bring them back for a certain number of minutes, then let them die again), or he could give them a second chance. Second chance was the call, and so everyone who failed got a re-roll. The Cleric, the one who could help people directly? She had failed the first time. She failed the second time. Yet another debt was incurred, and people got a third try at that save. She failed the third time as well.
The Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer, seeing tge Devil there, offered a deal of his own, incurred a debt, and got some protection from the negative energy effects.
He moved to the bed to burn the body, thinking that would do some good. The Banshee screamed that that was her favorit dress, and from that point on focused everything she had on that character. So he kept her busy while the party ran, grabbing bodies where they could.
Once the Druid reached the top he pulled out a Quall's Feather Token and conjured up a tree. People gathered, and he aimed them for a similar tree near the fortress they had come from, where they knew a Healer awaited. The question was, do they wait for the guy playing tag with the Banshee? They decided to wait.
Every time he tries to dodge around corners to escape her, she just goes through the walls and comes straight at him. His protection is rapidly being eaten away, but he's making progress towards the exit.
He hits the top of the stairs, running as fast as he can. Her Initiative is right behind his. It's been four rounds, so she can Scream again. He reaches the Druid, the Druid calls his Readied Action, and the party vanishes off the field a split second before she kills them all with that scream.
The player of the Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdance tries to say that they defeated her, or at least the challenge, by escaping with the dead bodies of their friends.
I suggested that I'd be generous and give them half Exp. They thought that was more than fair. For most it turned out to be less than they would have earned if we'd just given book standard for an RP session/challenge (50 per character level).
Afterwards, when they're licking their wounds, we discussed what had gone wrong (aside from everything).
1) They acted as if they had to do this *now*, with no time to prep.
2) They ignored the relatively sensible advice to prepare the scrolls, or use the Thunderstones.
Now at this point they have an extremely pissed off undead. They disturbed her grave, stole the scepter she had died trying to get, burned her body (and her favorite dress), end then escaped. And, unlike many other undead, she isn't bound to one physical place or thing. She's free to pursue them to the ends of the earth.
So I hand over the game to the next DM with a relatively clear conscience. He gets a mostly intact group, and more plot hooks than you can shake a stick at: One PC owes three services to a Kyton and/or his master, a second one owes a single service, a scepter that may or may not be important to some Dwarven clan, and a seriously ticked off high end undead that wants them all dead.
My work is done.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Our campaign is played "Round Robin" style. We come up with a game world that has a major issue, some over-arching goal that needs to be addressed. Each player writes up their character, and the land that they come from. Our group mission will take the PCs to different part of the world.
This campaign is set in something akin to the real world, at about the time that Rome fell. Of course, this version has Elves, Dwarves, Orcs etc. The challenge is that the world is covered by a cloud of smoky overcast, so there's no direct sunlight anywhere. Slow failure of the food supply, coupled with an enemy actively trying to tear down civilization, is the problem.
Our campaign started with a visit to the ancient Olympics in Greece. I ran that story arc, since my character is from Greece. From there our mission took us to Italy, the home territory of another PC. That PC went into NPC status when his player took over as the DM. From there it went to Rome itself, and another player took over as DM.
When you DM, your character becomes an NPC and leaves, under one pretext or another. He or she manages to somehow earn wealth and Exp equal to what you hand out to the others, so DMing doesn't become a penalty.
Part of the fun is that, while we all know the problem, and pretty much all of us DM, no one of us actually knows how to solve the problem. Details emerge over time, as different DMs come up with story contributions and the situation evolves.
Our current campaign will probably end within the next few months. We usually stop at or about 20th level, and we have people who just made 17th.
If you want a more complete picture, look in the Story Hour forum, a few pages down, for a series collected under the general heading, "Curse of Darkness". You might enjoy what's been written.
n00bdragon
First Post
In reference to OP without reading the rest of topic:
Surprising players with unpredictable and unpreventable circumstances which leave them a single die roll away from character death? Gygax would be proud.
Surprising players with unpredictable and unpreventable circumstances which leave them a single die roll away from character death? Gygax would be proud.
Greenfield
Adventurer
Unpredictable? Let's see, miles of land with "the life sucked out of it"? Investigating at night? Attacked by minor undead? Seeing and hearing more in the burned out building? Messing with a graveyard?
Is there some part of that that didn't scream "Danger, Undead threat!"? I practically hung a neon light on the scene. They didn't know exactly what undead threat they faced, but they sure as hell should have known there was one.
As for unpreventable: Don't investigate haunted houses after dark. Don't mess with the desecrated grave yard next to the haunted house, after dark.
There's two very simple, common sense ways to prevent what followed. A cheeseburger knows not to mess with the desecrated graveyard next to the haunted house, after dark. In what way is it my fault that they were dumber than cheeseburgers?
The only classic horror movie mistake they didn't make was to have the college girls dress in lingerie and then "Everybody split up".
Sorry, and I know it's rude to talk about people that way, but throughout this mess they've ignored clues, advice, even straight out answers that were handed to them. Even after I remarked on their lack of trying "Gather Information" at the way station, and they chuckled about their oversight, they still wouldn't take the time to do it.
And, even when facing an undead, they didn't even try the "Knowledge - Religion" check needed to identify the opponent. They were clueless because they turned down every clue presented. Not "missed", but actively refused.
Gygax would be ashamed of me for letting them off so easy.
Is there some part of that that didn't scream "Danger, Undead threat!"? I practically hung a neon light on the scene. They didn't know exactly what undead threat they faced, but they sure as hell should have known there was one.
As for unpreventable: Don't investigate haunted houses after dark. Don't mess with the desecrated grave yard next to the haunted house, after dark.
There's two very simple, common sense ways to prevent what followed. A cheeseburger knows not to mess with the desecrated graveyard next to the haunted house, after dark. In what way is it my fault that they were dumber than cheeseburgers?
The only classic horror movie mistake they didn't make was to have the college girls dress in lingerie and then "Everybody split up".
Sorry, and I know it's rude to talk about people that way, but throughout this mess they've ignored clues, advice, even straight out answers that were handed to them. Even after I remarked on their lack of trying "Gather Information" at the way station, and they chuckled about their oversight, they still wouldn't take the time to do it.
And, even when facing an undead, they didn't even try the "Knowledge - Religion" check needed to identify the opponent. They were clueless because they turned down every clue presented. Not "missed", but actively refused.
Gygax would be ashamed of me for letting them off so easy.
So far, I agree.
Two possible interpretations here. First, "You guys made every classic horror movie mistake - stupid Stupid STUPID". Second, "You guys played all of the classic horror movie tropes - great in-genre role playing".
Now, I lean to the former, for two reasons. First, it sounds like your game doesn't lean to the second approach. Second, you're not playing college students who don't have any reason to believe ghosts are anything but superstition - you are playing highly experienced adventurers who have probably faced ghosts on numerous occasions. If anything, they played cocky "we can beat anything that comes our way" adventurers who have, it seems, received a life lesson in that regard and, if anything, got off lightly for their folly.
More support for interpretation #2/cocky adventurers, agreed.
Wait, what? Here I depart from your interpretation. Because the player doesn't say "I try to identify the monster with my Knowledge: Religion", his character loses that knowledge? If he said "I think it's an outsider so I'll use my Knowlege Planes to identify it", would you interpret that to mean his knowledge of the Undead is compartmentalized, so it won't even occur that it might be undead, much less a type he can recognize? To me, the character HAS that knowledge. Not only does he not have to "activate" that knowledge, he can't very well shut it off. I'm pretty sure the average person recognizes a cat or a rabbit without having to focus on the difficult task of determining what that long-eared, furry hopping thing is.
Yeah, probably. I find I don't often stop the game to ask "What Would EGG Think?"
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