The Ethics of the Banshee

[Li Shenron]

There's two very simple, common sense ways to prevent what followed. A cheeseburger knows not to mess with the desecrated graveyard next to the haunted house, after dark. In what way is it my fault that they were dumber than cheeseburgers?

The only classic horror movie mistake they didn't make was to have the college girls dress in lingerie and then "Everybody split up".

Don't forget one thing tho: if the characters in that horror movie don't make the mistake, there is no horror movie.

If you give your players a "clue" that there is a terrible monster nearby, why should you expect them to turn around? Isn't the point of the game to have an adventure? If they roleplay realistically, and let their characters do the most sane thing always, they could end up stay safe in their homes, get a 9-17 job, and live happily ever after, just like the real players do.

It's an old problem in RPG, that on one hand we DMs would like to create a "realistic world" which includes some invincible threats (at least invincible at the current level), because it's unrealistic that the world only offers threats tailored to the PC's capabilities all the time...

But the players shouldn't be expected to be fully capable of figuring out what is invincible, before they actually start fighting it (and even then, it's not that easy). Unless you are playing a game with the monsters exactly as written and you are expecting the players to know the Monster Manual, at least enough to remember what is the expected party level to have a good chance to kill a Banshee and every other monster!

Otherwise, how can you honestly think the players are making a "mistake"? Don't overestimate your own skills in throwing "clues", because what might be "obvious" for the DM (of course it's obvious for her... the DM knows exactly what monsters she's using) it might not be obvious at all for the players.

It's quite the same as the old "Schrodinger's chest" problem:
- phase 1: the DM puts a treasure chest in the middle of the room, what do the PC's do? (a) the PCs choose to open the chest... stupid players! of course the chest is trapped! (b) the PCs choose to ignore the chest... stupid players! of course it's a normal treasure chest and you just missed it!
-phase 2: the DM puts a treasure chest in the middle of the room, this time with a clue, like skeletons around the chest, what do the PC's do? (a) the PCs choose to open the chest... double-stupid players! of course the chest is trapped, how could you miss the clue! (b) the PCs choose to ignore the chest... double-stupid players! of course it's a normal treasure chest with an illusion to discourage thieves!

Look, I'm not saying you did wrong or you didn't give the right clue... I think you did fine! But please, don't say your players were dumb because of what they choose to do, because ultimately players just can't know where the DM has put a trap or an unbeatable (or very risky) monster, they can only try...

That, and I could bet that Gygax never thought his players were "dumb" when they put their arm/head/other appendages inside that devil's head statue's mouth. Gygax just loved randomness IMHO, that's why he used those impossible threats sometimes (but yes, I agree he probably would not have changed the rule on the fly to save them, but that's not necessarily wrong... as I said before, it depends on the gamestyle and I think you did the right thing for your group).

 

[Doug McCrae]

How has this been handled up to this point? Has it been established that the PCs need to scout, or have they been successful without doing so?

 

[Greenfield]

Regarding scouting:

The party has a Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer who "hired on" specifically as a scout and guide.
The party has a Fighter/Dervish/Rogue who usually scouts buildings.
The party has a Ranger/Druid who usually scouts outdoor scenes.

Regarding Knowledge checks:

I specifically asked if anyone was going to roll Knowledge - Religion. No dice hit the table.
I specifically suggested Gather Information, twice. No dice hit the table.

Regarding preparation:

Because I didn't have the specific high level spell scrolls or items that would have made this a walk-over, several of them chose to take no precautions at all. They could have made scrolls.
Because some very effective items were priced as high as 25 gold pieces, the 15th/16th/17th level party didn't want to buy them And yes, price was the stated reason.
It turned out that one PC had the suggested item (Thunderstones), but A) Chose not to tell anyone, and B) Chose not to use them.

As a note: They did scout the region, carefully. They just didn't do much with the knowledge gained.

When the Scout/Hexblade/Shadowdancer started checking the stairwell, he intentionally hid from his own party. (His most common phrase is, "... and hide." ) When he stuck his leg into a bear trap, he insisted that he wasn't making a sound (I gave him a Will save). Nobody knew he was trapped and in trouble, and he worked hard to keep it that way.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

But the question is the ethics: How fair is it to use a mass death effect as the surprise action?

What on earth gave you the idea a banshee would fight fair?

 

[Empirate]

The question is not whether the banshee would fight fair, but whether your typical players would feel treated fairly if the DM sprang something like this on them. Read the rest of the thread...

 

[JRRNeiklot]

If a dm didn't play the banshee to the best of it's ability, why is there even a banshee there? If you don't want the chance of pcs dying, don't use monsters with those abilities. Sounds like you want the CHANCE of pcs dying without it ever happening. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Greenfield]

I see your point.

I mean, if I wanted a "kinder, gentler Death spell", I could have it do damage. Either knock them down to a generic -5 Hit points on a fail, regardless of what they started at, or maybe change that sort of effect so it does damage equal to their current hit points on a failed Save, or half of that on a successful one.

You could get the drama of time pressure to save someone, rather than the cold slap in the face of instant death. It would also take these things out of the "all or nothing" class of attacks.

I'll bounce that off my players, see if they want a house rule.

 

[Umbran]

Sounds like you want the CHANCE of pcs dying without it ever happening. You can't have it both ways.

No. Just not the chance of them dying quite so quickly, in such numbers, with them having so little opportunity to do anything about it. Don't shove the point quite so far to the pole, please.

 

[Li Shenron]

If a dm didn't play the banshee to the best of it's ability, why is there even a banshee there? If you don't want the chance of pcs dying, don't use monsters with those abilities. Sounds like you want the CHANCE of pcs dying without it ever happening. You can't have it both ways.

That's pretty much what players want, rather than the DM. They want to believe they survived because they played well.

 

[Jacob]

I see your point.

I mean, if I wanted a "kinder, gentler Death spell", I could have it do damage. Either knock them down to a generic -5 Hit points on a fail, regardless of what they started at, or maybe change that sort of effect so it does damage equal to their current hit points on a failed Save, or half of that on a successful one.

You could get the drama of time pressure to save someone, rather than the cold slap in the face of instant death. It would also take these things out of the "all or nothing" class of attacks.

I'll bounce that off my players, see if they want a house rule.

I would recommend against this. The rules and risks are in place for a reason. Death is scary, especially death effects because only the really powerful and rich can bring back such dead. Should you go with this house rule, expect death to not be as scary anymore. More so, the PCs may abuse the rule to their advantage via the feat Diehard. So instead of being unconscious and dying with the chance of quickly getting healed because of the house rule, they are now conscious and could likely heal themselves.