The extreme proliferation of magic in D&D

[00Machado]

Some games, like Conan, Iron heroes, and Black Company however, tend to break way from that model but have a different antagonist structure than D&D too.

Interesting way of putting it. I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the different antagonist structures, as I'm only passingly familiar with the above game material. I am aware of some of the conceptual differences, i.e. less magic, less powerful magic and/or more dangerous magic. I'm not sure how this translates into the antagonist stucture though. Now I'm curious.

 

[diaglo]

Its not built in I imagine the people who complain either don't realize they can remove it or have DMs that want it but they do not.

this is me. i don't want it. but some of the other players do. so we have some pcs with craft x feat.

and others buying items at ye olde magicke shoppe.

and then you have those of us left holding the coin. i end up spending 100 to 500 platinum pieces on ale and whores.

 

[Andor]

Otoh

Turning it around; why do people feel that in a world where magic is a practical and useful pursuit it should be rare for the sake of 'realism'? I'm sure just about every poster on this board is, or knows a pagan who works spells all the time, yet I will bet $20 bucks that not one of you/them has ever levitated so much as a paperclip. (Not an attack on pagans or a belief in magic, just a note about it's practical use vs physics.)

In D&D who is better at putting game in the pot, Bob who went to ranger school and has a BAB +1 to hit with his bow, or John who went to mage school and can cast true strike twice a day?

Watch some anthropology stuff. In most tribes that I've seen when it's time to read the entrails of some animal, every adult male in the tribe gathers to confer. Not just one guy with Shaman levels.

In a world with useful magic why are there any classes that don't incorporate magic into their skill sets? There have been bloody few warrior traditions on Earth that don't have a mystical bent, from Eastern Martial Arts and their Chi to Western Knights and their Cross shaped swords and prayer.

 

[Quasqueton]

First, the actual text from the Character Wealth By Level chart:

Character Wealth
One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. Table 5-1: Character Wealth By Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level.

The baseline campaign for the D&D game uses this "wealth by level" guideline as a basis for balance in adventures. No adventure meant for 7th-level characters, for example, will require or assume that the party possesses a magic item that costs 20,000gp.

I think a lot of people think it says something else/more.

Now, let's see examples:

Taking 6th level here, because most people agree that this puts the PCs completely out of the low levels (fighter-types have 2 attacks, spellcasters have 3rd level spells).

6th-level fighter [wealth guideline = 13,000gp]
+1 flaming longsword
+1 full plate
potion of cure serious wounds
potion of bull's strength
Total magic: 12,015gp [add in mundate supplies for 13,000]

6th-level cleric
+1 heavy mace
+1 heavy shield
masterwork full plate
+2 periapt of wisdom
+1 cloak of resistance
wand of cure light wounds
potion of bear's endurance
4 0th-level scrolls
3 1st-level scrolls
2 2nd-level scrolls
1 3rd-level scroll
Total magic: 11,980gp [add in mundane supplies for 13,000]

6th-level rogue
mithral shirt
+1 ring of protection
ring of climbing
potion of cure moderate wounds
potion of blur
2 potions of invisibility
+2 cloak of resistance
salve of slipperiness
Total magic: 11,800gp [add in mundane supplies for 13,000]

6th-level wizard
+2 bracers of armor
+1 ring of protection
+2 headband of intellect
6 0th-level scrolls
4 1st-level scrolls
3 2nd-level scrolls
2 3rd-level scrolls
1 4th-level scroll
Total magic: 12,072gp [add in mundane supplies for 13,000]

Is the above list really "extreme proliferation" for a party of adventurers?

In this group, only 1 item (the flaming sword) is "obvious magic". Most of the other stuff is either minor bonuses or one use items (plus one multi-use item - the wand).

Quasqueton

 

[churd]

Turning it around; why do people feel that in a world where magic is a practical and useful pursuit it should be rare for the sake of 'realism'? I'm sure just about every poster on this board is, or knows a pagan who works spells all the time, yet I will bet $20 bucks that not one of you/them has ever levitated so much as a paperclip. (Not an attack on pagans or a belief in magic, just a note about it's practical use vs physics.)

In D&D who is better at putting game in the pot, Bob who went to ranger school and has a BAB +1 to hit with his bow, or John who went to mage school and can cast true strike twice a day?

In a world with useful magic why are there any classes that don't incorporate magic into their skill sets? There have been bloody few warrior traditions on Earth that don't have a mystical bent, from Eastern Martial Arts and their Chi to Western Knights and their Cross shaped swords and prayer.

Doctors and lawyers make far more money than most people in our world, so why would people choose other professions? Obviously, because most people don't have the smarts or the work ethic needed to get into med school, and many of those who do would rather not spend 10 years in school living off mac and cheese and top ramen while their buddies are enjoying things like salries and free time.

Same deal with magic - most people don't have the necessary talent and many of those who do would rather not invest the huge amount of time / money necessary to become a spellcaster.

Nor do I think magic is dramatically more effective than a mundane skill set with a similar level of training. Sure the guy with true strike will be guaranteed a hit with his bow, but that does not mean a) he can track game to begin with b) he can sneak close enough to get off a shot c) the verbal / somantic components of the spell don't scare the prey off in the round the spell is cast d) his lack of woodcraft skills don't lead him to be eaten by one of the dangerous denizns common to most high fantasy woods. Sure, there are some situations where a spellcaster has an advantage, but there are others where other skills are required - most people can't develop these skills to a high level and maintain the focus necessary to also learn magic.

 

[Agback]

Is the above list really "extreme proliferation" for a party of adventurers?

In this group, only 1 item (the flaming sword) is "obvious magic". Most of the other stuff is either minor bonuses or one use items (plus one multi-use item - the wand).

Well, it's certainly not extreme in the sense that they could easily have more. I've often seen D&D parties better equipped with magic than that. Nevertheless, D&D might still have an extreme proliferation of magic in the sense that no other game and no popular fantasy literature or films gives PCs or characters as much magic as D&D does. Consider The Lord of the Rings as some sort of baseline. The Nine Walkers have the following equipment that is in any way special:

* Gandalf has his staff and the magical sword Glamdring.

* Strider has the magical sword Anduril, and later acquires the Elessar (a magical gem of unknown function) and a cloak of Elvenkind.

* Boromir has a sword (possibly magical, but not very) and an heirloom horn (possibly magical). He acquires a golden belt and a cloak of Elvenkind.

* Legolas has an shortbow and a dagger. He later acquires a longbow (possibly magical) and a cloak of Elvenkind.

* Gimli has an axe, helmet, and mail shirt (of dwarvish manufacture, but probably not magical). He acquires a cloak of Elvenkind and three strands of hair.

* Frodo has the Great Ring of Power (which he uses as a ring of invisibility), Sting (a magical shortsword), and a mithril mail shirt. He acquires a phial that will glow on command and a cloak of Elvenkind.

* Merry and Pippin have magical shortswords, but their powers don't seem particularly great except against the undead. They acquired cloaks of Elvenkind and silver belts.

* Sam has a magical shortsword like Merry's and Pippins, a collection of perfectly ordinary cooking pots, and a box of salt. He later acquires a cloak of Elvenkind, a box of superphosphate, and a seed.

Compared with the recommended equipment of a 6th-level D&D party, these great world-saving heroes are woefully under-equipped. I don't use the word 'extreme', nor 'proliferation', both of which are inclined to smack of criticism. But the conventions or D&D are for player characters to have more magical items than are found in most fantasy sources. A DM can of course tune that in setting his world assumptions. But if he or she does so he or she will have to be careful of the impact of PC spellcasters and the challenge presented by opponents with magical attacks, magical defences, and damage resistance.

 

[Whimsical]

After 30 years, Dungeons & Dragons has successfully established itself as it's own subgenre of fantasy in our worldwide subculture, and has influence modern fantasy writing, movies, video games, ect. It's not just Gandalf & Conan anymore.

 

[The Shaman]

I run into problems with the percieved level of magic in D&D. The base rules-as-written require a lot of magic. Not only are very few of the character classes spell-free, but there is a large assumption built in about magic items necessary to complete tasks appropriate to one's level. This is the whole basis of the CR. In the end, the RAW has a large amount of Magic Creep built into it....The problem that those of us who prefer lower assumed magical levels run into constantly is that we are "not playing the game right" or "not really playing D&D".

The "tons of magic" thing is baked into the reccomended equipment levels which balance fighter types vs spell casting types and the whole party against enemies. If you go low magic then your have to rebalance the class abilities and CRs.

This is a problem for me as well - it's not that I can't limit magic as the GM, but rather that the players have expectations about magic coming into the game that are repeatedly reinforced by the rules structure.

Because a certain quantity of magic is "baked in" to the rules (interesting choice of words, Mishihari Lord), reducing the prevalence of magic can be challenging mechanically - however, the larger issue has nothing at all to do with the mechanics, but rather the expectations of the players coming to the table.

I'd argue against even that as the PC's could have the same equipment in cash but only have a few items. Some of the magic items of the upper levels are extremely expensive.

And the more expensive items tend to be more powerful - the level of magic available to the characters is concentrated rather than dispersed, but it still falls within the amounts and the structure of the rules, which is to many GMs too high for the kind of game they want to run.

Its not built in I imagine the people who complain either don't realize they can remove it or have DMs that want it but they do not.

I'm sorry, Crothian, but that's just not right - it is built in, as Wombat and Mishihari Lord both noted, both mechanically and in player expectations. That's not to say that it can't be dialed back, but it takes work to do so if one doesn't want to invest in another system, like the books that JoeGKushner mentioned in the OP.

*snippy-snippy*

Is the above list really "extreme proliferation" for a party of adventurers?

Compared to, say, Conan? Or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser? Or Holger Carlson? If my goal as GM is to run a game that is closer in feel to the worlds in which these characters are portrayed, then yes, I'd have to say it is.

To run that game, my options are (1) strip away the magic built-in to the core assumptions of D&D (challenging, but not impossible) or (2) invest in another system.

 

[scourger]

I don't mind 6th level PCs having that many spells and so many magic items, per se. See above. A player can keep up with 1 PC fairly well (even if often done poorly--even by me at times). I do find it difficult to keep up with the foes that are published to challenge those PCs who have a comparable amount of magic (spells & items). That places a lot of extra bookkeeping on me as a DM, and it makes the game less fun for me.

Don't get me wrong. I love d20 D&D. I keep running it and playing it and its derivatives. I just find it a little too complicated, especially at higher levels and largely due to the magic. The game is a pen & paper, tabletop RPG trying to emulate a computer RPG. But my brain doesn't have a math co-processor.

I like the LOTR example. It somehow makes the magic swords, almost all of which are named, feel special and more magical because there aren't that many of them about. Notice also that there is only 1 "spellcaster" in the Fellowship, and he doesn't throw magic around very much.

 

[Wombat]

I must admit that the only time I had a group of 6th level characters with as many magical items, devices, scrolls, and potions as the baseline book suggests was in a comedy game.

But if you strip a character of the standard magical items that they would be assumed to have, the CR system breaks down immediately. That means there is a basic assumption that magical items are regularly handed out and available; that is a matter of built-in play balance.

This is why I do a lot of modifications. Take one aspect out of the rules and you have to learn to balance it somewhere else. That's fine, and I don't mind the effort, but obviously my tastes are not for the standard D&D world. And since they are not, I have to put in a certain amount of effort.

It repays itself in the end as I and my group end up with a game we would prefer to play, rather than the straight RAW.